Walsingham justified the use of torture against Catholic priests as necessary because without it the state could not prevail against the conspiracy.

119:23in 1575, without torture, I know we shall not prevail. >> Got it. very war on terror >> kind of Dick Cheney, isn't it? What was it? Um enhanced interrogation techniques. Uh it's a no-brainer. So I think for Walssingham it's a no-brainer. So Campion in his brag that letter he'd written that was meant to be private but which had gone viral. He had declared his defiance of of um Elizabeth's

119:47judicial authorities by directly namechecking the prospect of torture. So he said while we have a man left to enjoy your tyburn where people hanged or to be racked with torments or to be consumed with your prisons you know we will keep coming and he was right to dread what the uh what the Protestant authorities would do because in the tower he is repeatedly racked and it's so brutal that he loses the use of his

120:12pen hand. So people may remember that guy forks you know you can look at the his signature before and after he's been racked. Campion has it so badly that he can't even sign a paper. And when he's not being tortured, he's being subjected to various inquiries. So there's a judicial inquiry led by uh Robert Beal. There's a big theological debate which is staged in the parish church of the

120:34tower and Campion is only allowed the Bible. So he's not allowed any other books, no no other reference books. And then there a public trial is staged in Westminster Hall in November 1581. And throughout all these processes, the core argument is the one that we were talking about earlier. Is his mission a pastoral one or is it blatant treason? And this is, you know, they just keep going over and over and