Great design creates something genuinely new that has no training data or precedent, which is where human creativity remains essential.

25:26anymore. And the other point he made is like AI researchers aren't innately great at design and so they may not understand exactly what it takes to train a model to be really good at this. Uh thoughts? What do you think? What do you think it'll take to get AI to be much much better at product design? >> I mean, the new thing is interesting, right? Because I think that

25:45everything we're doing is trying to design something that hasn't existed before, right? Um, you know, if you look at if you look at great great products that have come out in the last, you know, 10 20 years or whatever, right? It's like all of a sudden, you know, take the iPhone, we're designing for multi-touch. And that opened up like this whole new interaction paradigm. And there's no training data for that,

26:08right? You have to you're kind of really trying to understand this new thing, right? And then you had something like Instagram that was like really embracing um the sort of like the fact that everybody had mobile phones. And then Snapchat, I think, is another good example of great design and that it was kind of a maybe people thought strange sort of like interaction design, but it completely thought like flipped on its

26:33head the way people might want to communicate with each other. And to me that that is like great design. It's like truly understanding like I you know the people that like people have this problem or there's this unmet need and and I'm going to build it with this in this unique way. So yeah, I do think that there's that sort of like fresh new kind of way. And then now with AI, it's

26:54like we're designing like how do you talk to something that uh is how do you talk to AI with your voice, you know, or how do you use an agent to like carry out tasks for you? It's like yeah, there isn't a lot of precedent for this. And so I think that, you know, humans are able to kind of do a really good job kind of evaluating, you know, what good

27:16is and um, you know, or at least kind of like trying a bunch of things and and learning along the way with people. And so um I don't know, but again, like all this stuff changes really quickly. It's hard to say, but uh I think um I think there's a lot of reasons why uh having that human in the loop is going to be so important. And kind of following that

27:35thread of the human in the loop when you're hiring designers these days, what's kind of trending up in what you look for, what you think is more and more important in the designers that will be successful today, especially at OpenAI, what's trending down with anything? >> This might be a luxury of having a slightly larger team, but if you're, you know, at our scale, um, you know, but