Corporate HR mentality has been implemented into our whole thought process, turning society into one big corporation where people are afraid to be human.

(00:00:00) The following is a conversation with Oliver Anthony, singer-songwriter from Virginia, who first gained worldwide fame with his viral hit, Rich Men North of Richmond. He became a voice from many who are voiceless, with his songs speaking to the struggle of the working class in modern American life. His legal name is Christopher Anthony Lunsford. Oliver Anthony was his grandfather's name. (00:00:28) And so Chris used this name as a dedication to his grandfather and to 1930s Appalachia, where his grandfather was born and raised. Dirt floors, seven kids, hard times, as Chris says. He's happy to be called either one, by the way. I've gotten to know Chris more since the recording of this conversation. He truly is, as he appears online and in his songs, down to earth, humble, and a good man who deeply feels the pain of the downtrodden. (00:00:59) And now a quick few second mention of each sponsor. Check them out in the description or at lexfriedman.com slash sponsors. It's the best way to support this podcast. We got Masterclass for learning, Shopify for selling stuff, Oracle for computing, Tax Network USA for taxes, and Element for electrolytes. Choose wisely my friends. And now on to the full ad reads. I do them differently than most podcasts do. Usually I barely talk about the sponsor and instead (00:01:27) Just take this quiet moment to talk about things I'm reading or thinking about. A little Bob Ross like heart to heart between you and me. Also, unlike most podcasts, I don't do ads in the middle, so they're all bunched up here in one place. You can skip if you like, but if you do, please still check out the sponsors. I enjoy their stuff, maybe you will too. If you want to get in touch with me for whatever reason, go to lexfreeman.com/contact. (00:01:56) All right, on to the ethereal realm of Sponsorland. Let's go. This episode is brought to you by Masterclass, where you can watch over 200 classes from the best people in the world in their respective disciplines. You know, I know so little about filmmaking. The Scorsese Masterclass was instructive. Scorsese himself, his approach, his deliberate, passionate, almost bipolar, (00:02:24) approach to filmmaking into editing. It's inspiring to watch madness manifest into genius. I think about the hand-drawn storyboards for Taxi Driver. I haven't seen them, heard about them. And that, I think, is the birthplace of great films, is the storyboards, right? Really, it's the vision in the mind of somebody like Scorsese, (00:02:50) that then is projected onto the storyboards. So the storyboards is just a slice, but that's the first time they take shape in a visual, physical reality. I should do that more. I should think in the space, in the realm of storyboards, especially when I try to do sort of vlog, documentary, filmmaking type of stuff. Really inspiring. Anyway, get unlimited access to every masterclass and get an additional 15% off an annual membership at masterclass.com slash selects pod. (00:03:18) That's masterclass.com/lexpod. This episode is also brought to you by Shopify, a platform designed for anyone to sell anywhere with a great looking online store. I got a chance to talk to DHH, the creator of Ruby on Rails, for many, many, many hours. What a wonderful human being. Genius, but also fun and aggressive in his opinions, and holding those opinions not in a personal kind of way, but in an almost (00:03:48) backyard football kind of way. Just seeing who wins with a particular idea, just for the explicit purpose of learning something from the interaction, from the tension between the ideas, from the debate. Such a fun person to talk to. 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(00:05:09) And the discussion centered around how much computational power would be required to simulate the weather sufficiently to be able to predict it. And I've gotten a chance to talk to a few people who chase storms. They're storm chasers. And they actually have to do this kind of weather prediction. Obviously, with simulation, you have to always choose a level of abstraction. You can't get down to the sort of quantum mechanical simulation. Or if you do, you're going to need a large computer, probably (00:05:38) as large or larger than the size of the universe if you want to perfectly simulate a thing. But sometimes a laptop with a nice GPU will do. Anyway, cut your cloud bill in half when you switch to OCI, Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, I believe that stands for. Offer is for new US customers with a minimum financial commitment. See if you qualify at oracle.com/lex. That's oracle.com/lex. (00:06:04) This episode is also brought to you by Tax Network USA, a full-service tax firm focused on solving tax problems for individuals and small businesses. I think this is the right place to mention Oliver Anthony's Chris' song, Rich Men North of Richmond. Boy, does the tax law really fuck over the blue-collar worker, the everyday man. The more complexity there is, the more loopholes there are for people with (00:06:34) many lawyers and accountants and expert explorers of the loopholes, finders of the loopholes. It's nuanced, of course, pros and cons, but really, at the end of the day, I think a simpler tax law is better. I don't know. That song hit me hard, hit a lot of people hard, and a lot of Chris's songs do. Sometimes it feels hopeless, but I would say more than (00:07:04) probably any country on earth, the United States really puts a lot of power in the hands of individuals. But we live in the system we live in, so here we are. That's why you need these guys. Talk with one of their strategists for free today. Call 1-800-958-1000 or go to tmusa.com slash lex. This episode is also brought to you by Element, my daily zero sugar delicious electrolyte mix. (00:07:34) Whenever I think about thirst, whenever I think about water, whenever I think about electrolytes, I think about my time in the Amazon jungle. I recorded a bunch of different videos from that time and I need to put together a little like a mini documentary of that time to celebrate really the jungle and to celebrate the human being of Paul Rosley. This earth. (00:08:01) This civilization creates some special humans, and he's one. But anyway, I remember thinking about Element, like a cold, a drink of water with some Element in it. I remember thinking about that when going through the jungle, deeply dehydrated. It's the little things in life. Anyway, get a sample pack for free with any purchase. Try it to drinkelement.com/lex. (00:08:30) This is the Lex Friedman Podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Christopher Munsford, or as many of you know him as Oliver Anthony. (00:09:00) So I was texting you last night, sitting at an open mic, listening to a guy perform Great Balls of Fire. Like I told you, he's giving everything he got for like 5 people in the audience plus me. Well, you were there. I'd have been doing it too if you were out there and be like, oh, that's like screaming. No, man. He's this big dude on the keyboard, just everything. Sweaty, long hair. You could tell like he was there in his own little world. I love the courage of that, of just giving it everything. I don't (00:09:29) I don't think he wants to be famous. I don't think he wants anything in life except to be there and to play like his heart out. That's why I love open mics. Like some people still aspire to be famous when they play open mics, but some people, maybe they've given up, maybe they never wanted to be famous. They're just there for the pure artistry of it. So, yeah. And you said you started out playing open mics. What, at shitty bars, what was that like? Well, yeah, real quick before I forget to a great example of a, of a guy who, (00:09:58) had that same mindset and was able to maintain it really well as this mandolin player named Johnny Stats in West Virginia. To me, he's one of the best and he's won all these awards and stuff and he still works for UPS full time. And like he could go out and tour with it, play mandolin for anybody he wanted to. But he, but man, when you meet Johnny, like you can tell he's just got this, joy in him that I don't think he would have if he, but as far as me with the open mics, (00:10:29) Yeah, it was just, it was a lot of them were really, a lot of them were embarrassing. There was a couple, I remember there was times where I'd go up and try to do, I do like one song, I get like halfway through the next song and I'd be so nervous by that point. I didn't, I couldn't remember any of the words. And there's a couple of times I've, I remember there was one time in particular that I just, I just walked off halfway through the song, put my guitar in the case and just, well, I just left. I didn't even like, couldn't even stay in there. (00:10:54) Total, just total freak out. Just embarrassment. And I never drank in bars either. Like I'm not a, I wasn't really a social drinker, so I was just there to try to do the mic. So it was kind of, I was a little out of place anyway. I feel kind of out of place in a bar to start with. So. Yeah, it's back when you could smoke in bars. There's a whole vibe to it. People smoking, drinking. And yeah, definitely, you know, bombing in a place like that when the audience is. (00:11:20) There's like 5 people and they're bored. Yeah, there was one like that. It was in Matoka. It wasn't that far from where I lived. The place is gone now, but it was about as big as the room we're in here. If that, you know, like the ceiling tiles were yellow from where everybody had smoked in it since the beginning of time. But like, yeah, that was my little spot, those little type of spots. You did covers? What'd you play? What was your go-to? Back then, it was like, I don't know, Fishing in the Dark, Nitty Gritty Band, or like, (00:11:49) Any of those old Hank, like Hank Jr. songs, like any of those bar type, David Allen Coe, like You Never Call Me By My Name, any of that kind of stuff. And I haven't even played any of those in forever now, but that was, any of those ones where you get people singing along and stuff, that's what I'd always try to do, you know? Yeah, that song you performed, Take Me Home, Country Road, and How's That Go, West Virginia. Yeah. It's a good song. John Denver was just one of those guys that (00:12:14) It's who knows where he would have went long term if he wouldn't have passed. But it's a fun song that I love. I shouldn't, but I love is, what is it? Like, thank God I'm a country boy. I think that's what I liked about John Denver was he was a little bit like, he let himself be a little bit corny in the spirit of like, having fun with it. Like, great example, there's this old, older guy that not a lot of people have heard of named Roy Clark. But (00:12:42) My farm's like a mile down the road from Roy Clark's old farm, but he used to be on Hee Haw. I don't know if you ever heard of that old show from like the 60s or whatever, but crazy dude, he could pick any instrument up. Like there's videos on YouTube of them, but he would just sit there and just pick anything up and just rip it to death. But he would always just be real silly about it. He never had, he never took it too, never took himself too seriously, you know. Some people go to the fun place, some people go to the dark place. Yeah. It's a, you know, country can do both. You, (00:13:10) more often go to the dark place, to the pain. Yeah, well, especially some of the new songs that are coming out, they'll be probably not, I mean, I don't know what they'll be. I don't know. What is country anymore anyway? I don't know that many people who listen to the type of music that I grew up listening to probably listen to country radio anymore anyway. Like, I think there's quite a lot of people who don't, (00:13:35) who sort of disowned that space, In commercialized country, you only really get what sells, which, and a lot of what sells isn't necessarily what matters. Well, you had that whole experience where they take what you recorded and polish it, quote unquote, try to make it perfect, and then so doing destroy the soul of the thing. And so probably that happens with these big artists. They're so famous. It's like a machine. And so what the machine does is it over polishes things. And so the raw, (00:14:05) like power of the person, the uniqueness of the person, the soul of the person is gone if you do that. Yeah. Well, I think professionalism in general, like applying the tactics of corporate America to anything that is baseline artistic is not going to end well. They're all individually brilliant, but together this corporate speak comes out. Yeah. Just the soul of the people dissipates, it disappears. (00:14:34) Why are you all pretending that like life is not terrible and beautiful and like you're both scared, shitless and excited and this guy's going through a divorce. This person just fell in love. Like you're forgetting the intensity of life with this corporate like 9 to 5, like, hi, John. It's great to see you today. (00:15:02) you too. You as well. You as well. But when I look at it, I'm like, why am I whining? I feel like a Bukowski type character. Because like, they're all really nice. They're all good people. But like, something is gone when you have this corporate machine. Well, they're there to fill a role contractually. And if they, I think if they bring too many of their human elements into that, then they jeopardize losing their sense of security. And it's all just out of fear. It's out of fear of losing your job. I mean, (00:15:31) It's the reason why all the songs say Oliver Anthony and not Christopher Lunsford on them. You know, like it's fear of, it's so difficult to, especially now it seems, I mean, who knows? I didn't, I was never around in the 40s or 50s to work a job. I'm sure they were probably pretty miserable back then, but you know, they talk about now like how difficult it is, like the impossibility of having a single family household or anything else. But like when you find a decent paying job that you can do without it just torturing you every day, that's (00:16:00) That's a pretty important thing now, and so it's pretty easy to just, it's pretty easy to kind of turn yourself into a robot for 8 or 10 hours a day out of fear of, it's like, you don't want to be yourself too much because maybe part of yourself isn't something that's accepted in this like dystopian nightmare that you go to work at every day. And so you just got to do your best to just not step on any toes or do anything that makes you stand out too much, you know? And now it's like, (00:16:29) Now, like when you scroll through some of these videos of people like the big, even when I was still like, when I was still working my lame job, it was like, there was this whole big thing of people talking about quiet quitting or something like that, where they were just going to go to work, but not really do anything. But that hurts me so much. That hurts me when you just stop when you're there, but you're not really there. That makes me so sad. Yeah. So then they wonder, these companies just slowly kind of fall apart and disintegrate because (00:16:57) they're so worried about structure. And like, I mean, God, man, even in America today, our culture has become, because so many big corporations own and manage everything that we live under, like food, agriculture, healthcare, like social media, it's all in corporate structures that it's almost like a lot of the problems we find ourselves in now with society, I think are like, it's just because of, it's almost like corporate HR has been implemented into our whole thought process of everything, you know? It's like, (00:17:27) I think that's kind of what you're touching on though. It's like, it's hard to be, it's hard to be a human and be a good little corporate employee at the same time. And as our whole society moves more into like becoming a, like basically one big corporation, it's like, (00:17:45) You don't want to piss the HR lady off, so it's a lot easier for me to just beep boop. We're all sort of just turning, we're all turning into robots, you know. And that's, I've talked to great engineers about this. Jim Keller is a legendary engineer. Elon, Elon Musk is another example. (00:18:00) that you need that, I don't know what's a nice term for it, but you need the asshole. Because you want to get to the ground truth of things, to the first principle of things, like how do we simplify, how do we make it more efficient, how do we move faster, how do we get shit done? And that has no place for this kind of polite speak. And then, you know, other great team members swoop in and like repair the damage that the tornado has done. Do you think that's because I'm not. (00:18:29) I'm not super well versed about all this, so I'm probably dumb to even mention it. But this guy who's been helping me with doing a documentary, he's been following me around since the very first show at August of 23. His background was doing promotional videos for Boeing, like for on their new spacecraft to pitch it to whoever. And so he was, we touched base a little bit on Boeing. And of course, they're having a lot of problems now, it sounds like. And he was comparing that with SpaceX. (00:18:59) or with, that I think it's that exactly what we touched on with that thought process of that sort of dehumanization within companies. I think that's what ultimately causes maybe, I don't know if there's a connection there or not, but it seems like Boeing is a very, would be more of that. They don't have that tornado. They're very like, he was telling me even just with his protocols and some of the people he worked with, like everything's just very, (00:19:22) lightly touch everything. No one, don't touch anything too hard. So it's not just HR, it's also, it's just this managerial class where it's like Bob from this department has to schedule a meeting with John from this department and Debbie. Like they have to have a meeting 2 1/2 weeks from now and then there's paperwork and that bureaucracy that's created in the managerial class just slows everything down. And (00:19:49) One of the things that slowing everything down does is it really demotivates the people that are actually doing this shit, like the people on the ground, the engineers that are building stuff. It's again, soul drenching to like be excited, show up, and now you hit this wall of paperwork. Like you can't, you have to wait for John and Debbie, and I forgot the third guy's name that I imagined in my head. (00:20:17) to have a meeting. (00:20:19) It just, and then you kind of slow down and you disappear in terms of that fire, that passion that's required to create big things. (00:20:29) Yeah, because they don't believe, there's a lack of leadership. (00:20:31) And if they don't believe in, if they don't believe in that leadership, then why the hell would they be motivated? (00:20:37) I mean, I remember a while back watching Jocko Willnick talk about a, talk about that when he was (00:20:45) in leadership when he was leading his guys. (00:20:48) I think he mentions it in his book, is probably where I remember seeing it, one of his books. (00:20:53) And he talks about like how important it was for the people under him in rank to believe in what he was, the actions he was giving them, even if he necessarily didn't agree with him himself. (00:21:03) It was like there, it's really hard to take orders and go, and like to have human spirit, and especially in something that's innovative and not, if you're working for a company where you just think everybody's, (00:21:14) dumb. (00:21:15) I mean, I can certainly relate with that. (00:21:16) I mean, God, that's all, in my old job, that's all we did was we spent half our day just talking about how dumb we thought everybody was that was above us. (00:21:24) You know, it's like it's easy to fall into that in the corporate world. (00:21:27) And so yeah, the morale gets terrible and everyone suffers as a result of it, you know? (00:21:33) Like the people at the top who are implementing all that dysfunction suffer and the people at the bottom. (00:21:38) It's like it's not good for anybody. (00:21:40) I had thought now that I'm doing this, (00:21:42) that I could escape away from that. (00:21:44) But that exact same mentality and that dysfunction and that inefficiency, like I still battle it every day. (00:21:54) That's why it takes unique characters to lead the way. (00:21:57) Such unique characters are very much needed in the music industry to revolutionize everything. (00:22:01) Cut through the bureaucracy, the bullshit that ultimately is just a machine that steals money and doesn't get anything done, really. (00:22:09) We'll talk about it. (00:22:10) By the way, all the love in the world to Jocko. (00:22:13) He's great. (00:22:14) I've been going through lots of ups and downs in life. (00:22:17) Lots of low points for myself over the past, shit, three years really, but recently, especially, and he always texts in this. (00:22:29) in this very high testosterone way of like, you good, bro. (00:22:36) Just checking in. (00:22:37) I mean, he's a good man. (00:22:38) He's a good man. (00:22:38) He's obviously an inspiration to millions of people, but also just as a good human being himself. (00:22:45) So maybe one thing that we felt similarly, I'm just, I would imagine you way more than me is just feeling like, wow, I have the ability to influence or the ability to (00:22:58) to either bring truth or to improve people's lives, or every word that you say sometimes matters so much. (00:23:06) And you're just like, man, I'm an idiot. (00:23:08) Like, I don't, like, I don't know, you know, like I would have never guessed. (00:23:12) I mean, we were kind of talking about that before about like, I would have never guessed that this would have turned into all this. (00:23:18) But it is a weight that you bear, whether you really even acknowledge it or not, you know, like. (00:23:25) Yeah, I think it's like, (00:23:28) the songs you've created, they speak to the human condition, to the struggle of everyday working people in a society that has the elites that try to take advantage of those working people. (00:23:42) And you're just speaking through your music those truths of how life is. (00:23:50) And then that has a huge impact on a lot of people. (00:23:53) That's really positive. (00:23:55) but then you also get attacked and misrepresented and lied about from different angles. (00:24:01) And just the turmoil, the intense chaos of that, it disorients, it disorients me, like, to be attacked by a very large number of people, to be lied about, to be just the, it, because I love people and just have, I have a general optimism about humanity, it just disorients me. (00:24:25) it gives me this feeling like, I generally, just like you said, think of myself as kind of an idiot, not really knowing what I'm doing. (00:24:36) And when a lot of people tell you that you're correct, you don't know what you're doing, you start to want to hide. (00:24:43) You want to hide from the world, hide from yourself. (00:24:46) And then there's also just the chemistry of the brain. (00:24:49) It's like, you shake up the brain a little bit, (00:24:52) it starts getting, it starts getting weird. (00:24:54) And it's so you can get how many fronts it can get real lonely. (00:24:59) When getting attacked, when you're kind of fucking things up in many ways, it can get lonely. (00:25:07) Yeah. (00:25:08) So it's been, so you get a text from Jocko, like, you good? (00:25:12) Yeah. (00:25:12) And then I mean, I have good friends. (00:25:15) Andrew Huberman's been great. (00:25:16) Rogan's been great. (00:25:17) Well, you know, you, Lex, (00:25:21) have her many years ago was in a different place in society than Lex is now. (00:25:25) And so it's like every conversation you have or every relationship you have is inherently different, even if you aren't any different. (00:25:32) Friends that you had from before maybe, or even just new people you meet, your interactions with them are going to be a lot different than if this wasn't a thing. (00:25:38) And so it's like that can be tricky too. (00:25:41) When you've spent your whole life (00:25:43) from the time you're three years old and you're starting to play with other kids and developmentally learning like how to share and how to interact and you're on the, you're playing, you're playing on the playground with kids and learning how to set rules and boundaries and how to basically fit into society. (00:26:00) And so you have this whole learning pattern up until whatever point in time when success happens. (00:26:05) And then, (00:26:06) It's like all that shifts pretty dramatically all, in a relatively short period of time. (00:26:12) And so how do you, how do you think like managing your previous, like previous friendships or your, like, how has that been tricky for you or like? (00:26:20) Yeah, it's been, it's been tough. (00:26:22) I, you know, I value deep, close, long-term friendships. (00:26:26) And yeah, but I mean, I have amazing friends, but they certainly do treat me a little different. (00:26:32) They bust my balls noticeably less. (00:26:36) Yeah. (00:26:37) And you need that sometimes. (00:26:39) I need, not sometimes, all the time. (00:26:41) First of all, it's how dudes show love is making fun of each other, at least my friends. (00:26:48) Yeah. (00:26:49) Like, you know, when you watch, man, I'm going to get in trouble, but when you watch women interact, they're often like really positive towards each other. (00:26:58) Like, oh, you look great. (00:27:02) We watch dudes interact, like close friends, they're just like, I mean, busting each other. (00:27:06) I'll stop making fun of each other. (00:27:11) And so, yes, that has been a little bit harder. (00:27:15) I try. (00:27:15) I try to break those walls, like, but that's why with the famous friends, it's a little bit easier because they can still, like, Rogan roasts me nonstop. (00:27:24) So it's just, it's, and it just feels good. (00:27:27) I just sit there and get made fun of, and it's great. (00:27:30) It's great. (00:27:31) And I still do it all the time. (00:27:32) I just, it's just a different experience now, but I, I'm like a Goodwill junkie. (00:27:36) Like most of, like most of even my clothes were from Goodwill, but like I have this. (00:27:43) I have this like addiction with buying paintings from Goodwill. (00:27:46) Like the $8 paintings where it looks like somebody was following along with like a Bob Ross video and it didn't work out quite right. (00:27:53) Like I love, like I buy every one of those. (00:27:54) I'll go in there and buy like 10 of them. (00:27:56) And so just even, you know, anytime you got into public now, it's just like, you know, it's going to be a little different than it was. (00:28:00) You know, I don't know if that makes sense or not. (00:28:02) Yeah, for sure. (00:28:03) I mean, I'm trying to deal with it. (00:28:04) But all of it, when you talk to world leaders, (00:28:07) when you step into politics a little bit, and you apparently stepped into politics, even though you never meant to, you're not a political person. (00:28:15) That world is like, what the fuck? (00:28:19) It's very intense, especially at an intense moment in history, in an extremely divided country. (00:28:26) So yeah, like saying that I'm not in politics, people are like, well, of course you're in politics. (00:28:31) And I don't know whether I am or not, but it just (00:28:35) I do think a lot of people in politics, like as far as the people who sit on the internet all day and argue about stuff on X or on whatever, Facebook and all, like, I do think their heart is in it for the right reasons. (00:28:49) They observe that there's a lot of things wrong in the world that they'd like to see different. (00:28:53) It's just, how do you get those people out of a, how do you get those people out of this four by four square and like really, like they're entrapped in a, (00:29:04) in the same kind of box that the people at Boeing might be with that structure. (00:29:08) it's too, it's the tornado metaphor. (00:29:11) I mean, it's a bureau, but it applies in politics too. (00:29:13) Like there needs to just be a tornado through politics and we need to figure, we need to just like lay all this other stuff aside and just figure out what's really pissing everybody off, what's really affecting our quality of life. (00:29:25) A lot of times we're arguing over the symptoms of problems instead of identifying the problems, if that makes any sense. (00:29:30) I mean, if Jordan Peterson were here, he would tell us about fire and how important that is and burning, and like it, but it is all the same. (00:29:36) Water and fire and ice metaphor, and there would definitely be a connection to the Bible, and then we would receive a three-hour lecture and let people follow. (00:29:44) But it's all true. (00:29:46) It's all 100% accurate. (00:29:48) Yeah, that's the crazy thing. (00:29:49) But it all ties into that same thing. (00:29:51) Like, yeah, in politics now, it's almost like there's a rule book that you have to follow. (00:29:56) And if you (00:29:57) You can't agree with this unless you also agree with that. (00:30:00) it's like, and maybe it's like the places, the way that we receive information about what's going on in the political landscape is always so biased. (00:30:09) And it's like the, well, it's contingent upon this algorithm, this like algorithmic system that we live under where we're fed, it's like we're almost fed certain subcategories. (00:30:19) And it's easy to fall into that because you don't like hearing things you disagree with. (00:30:23) And so it's a lot easier to just, (00:30:25) turn the TV on or go on Facebook and look at whatever page posts things that you know you're going to consistently agree with every day. (00:30:31) And that's not going to challenge the way you think in any little way, you know, or like expand your thinking at all. (00:30:37) It's easy to just, it's kind of like a, it's a cult-like type of thing. (00:30:41) It's like, you know, here's, this is what we all agree with. (00:30:44) And if you don't, then go and get, you know, like, but it doesn't, (00:30:50) We're far too complicated for it to really work that way. (00:30:53) Well, this actually relates to one of my favorite things in your conversation with Jordan, where you're just, where you're just shooting the shit about like playing live music and he goes to Kierkegaard. (00:31:05) She's like Soren Kierkegaard, the philosopher. (00:31:09) I love Jordan so much. (00:31:10) I do too. (00:31:10) He just goes to Carl Jung and Nietzsche. (00:31:15) And there, this idea from Kierkegaard that the crowd is untruth. (00:31:19) So when you, there's elements to the crowd that loses the humanity and the honesty of an individual that makes up the crowd, because the default incentive of the crowd is to conform to some kind of narrative. (00:31:37) It's like a, (00:31:40) It's like a distributed system that arrives at a narrative and the narrative holds control over that crowd as opposed to the individual humans who are thinking for themselves and being honest with their own thoughts and realities and so on. (00:31:53) And so he was saying that as a reason from a communication perspective, (00:32:00) to speak to individuals in the crowd, not to the crowd. (00:32:03) So from the performer perspective, the moment you speak to the crowd, you're speaking to the lie that is the crowd according to Soren Kirkgard. (00:32:11) It's pretty hardcore. (00:32:12) Kierkegaard is pretty hardcore. (00:32:13) Jordan is pretty hardcore. (00:32:14) But that is true. (00:32:15) I mean, but specifically in my case, I mean, really, it applies more than it probably does in a lot of cases with crowds and music. (00:32:25) You know, talking about Richmond, (00:32:27) I wasn't necessarily even excited that Richmond did as well as it did. (00:32:32) It was like, in a way, it was almost like alarming that it did so well, you know? (00:32:36) And so those crowds that show up, like, maybe they do like my music, but I also think they're there for something, there is something bigger about it. (00:32:46) I mean, I wish I would have done a better job of having people there at shows to capture some of those crowds I had. (00:32:53) And 24, man. (00:32:54) You mean the size, the intensity? (00:32:56) The intensity. (00:32:57) Like it was revolutionary almost. (00:32:59) Song of revolution. (00:33:00) You know, I think a redemption song from Bob Marley. (00:33:05) Like that song, it just connected with people. (00:33:08) There's something there. (00:33:08) Well, and so many people identified different elements. (00:33:12) Like I said, it goes back to when we were kind of talking when we first got here, but it was crazy how it was almost like at the beginning, along with the scrutiny and some of the other things, it was a lot of different people. (00:33:21) Like, (00:33:22) almost fighting over me or fighting over it, like, because it resonated with different, it resonated with people who voted differently than each other, which is, probably a pretty terrifying thing if you're, if you're in the business of keeping people divided and angry at each other. (00:33:38) So it was, you know, it was a, it was one of the first, one of the only times that I can think where there was that, much of a sense of unity among people who otherwise wouldn't. (00:33:51) I mean, like, (00:33:52) I mean, I think about 9-11 when I was a kid. (00:33:54) I was in 4th grade, but God, man, people were just like, people just put everything aside there for a little while. (00:34:00) And it was kind of like, there's bigger problems that just aren't in our face. (00:34:05) And if, man, if they're in your face just for a second or two, you realize like, it's hard in your mind to create a graph that's got like all these, but you know, we argue about a lot of these problems, but if you were to really look at them like, (00:34:21) If you really just stand back and look at all the problems we spend time focusing about on the internet versus all the things that are affecting us, like that really, and probably at our core even piss us off, it's got to be very disproportionate. (00:34:34) And like the reason it got the reaction it did is because we all, like no matter what it is that we're upset about or what we think needs to be different in the world or our opinions of things or how we're raised or what our parents taught us, it's like, I think we all feel a little bit out of control in this new society. (00:34:48) We all feel like we're probably, (00:34:51) We probably all feel like we're falling into this kind of like corporate power structure where none of us, where we all are just robots. (00:34:57) We're all just, we're not allowed to be ourselves and be human almost, you know? (00:35:03) And there was enough people feeling that. (00:35:06) I mean, people on the left feeling like the people in power are fucking over the working class, people on the right feeling the exact same with different words assigned to it, the deep state. (00:35:19) fucking over middle America, whatever the narratives are. (00:35:23) And they're just, when enough of that is happening, again, with the corporate polite speak, there's something about politeness that's really dangerous. (00:35:33) I feel like there's a lot of politeness in the Soviet Union. (00:35:38) Yeah, great example. (00:35:39) Underneath that, it's like Chernobyl, which is this nuclear power plant that melted down. (00:35:46) I feel like the bureaucracy needs politeness and civility and paperwork to function. (00:35:56) And then atrocities can happen underneath that. (00:35:59) So everybody, people in power with a smile on their face can just do horrific things and then give propaganda that look, you know, it's rainbows and sunshine and unicorns. (00:36:13) Yeah. (00:36:14) So people that are rude, I mean, I'm starting to awaken to this a little bit. (00:36:18) Like you need a little, like Tom Way says, I like my Tom with a little drop of poison. (00:36:24) You need some like, some poison, some swearing, some meanness, some bullshit, some like intensity to shake up a system. (00:36:35) Because when it sort of converges towards this polite bureaucracy, the atrocities can happen. (00:36:43) and hidden away. (00:36:45) And what's probably the most terrifying to me is that politeness is just theatrical, whereas it emulates the respect that we would normally give each other in society if we were healthy and functional. (00:36:56) What was the process of writing that song? (00:37:00) I mean, it really spoke to the pain and anger of millions of people. (00:37:05) So there's magic there. (00:37:08) How many edits? (00:37:10) How many like lines did you write? (00:37:13) Were there any lines that you were like tormented by, haunted by, come back? (00:37:17) Should I do it this way or this way or that? (00:37:19) Do you have a, I don't know, do you, can you pull TikTok up on this? (00:37:23) So if you go to my page, so if you go down. (00:37:25) There's some chickens. (00:37:27) Yeah, go down pre Richmond. (00:37:29) You can see the original version of Richmond where I put it up. (00:37:33) This is so cool to see the evolution. (00:37:35) There it is. (00:37:35) Okay. (00:37:35) So that's, if you play that, that's. (00:37:38) I have too many unfinished songs. (00:37:40) Yeah, play that. (00:37:41) Click that and play it. (00:37:41) I've been selling my soul. (00:37:45) 724. (00:37:47) Oh wow. (00:37:50) Wow. (00:37:50) So I can sit out here, waste my life away. (00:37:55) Drag back home, drink my trouble. (00:37:58) And if you read through this, it's so funny. (00:37:59) Everybody's like, you're about to blow up. (00:38:01) But that's, that's all I had. (00:38:07) So I had. (00:38:09) I had just that. (00:38:11) You should probably finish this one. (00:38:13) Might be real popular. (00:38:15) That's a post from a few days later. (00:38:18) That was in that was in July. (00:38:21) That's so inspiring, man. (00:38:22) So that's what I had. (00:38:24) That's so inspiring. (00:38:26) That's what, like a couple of weeks before you posted the final. (00:38:31) Well, that's all I had. (00:38:32) Yeah, that's all I had written at that point. (00:38:34) Like that in my mind, that's what that's the inspiration for the song was that little bit. (00:38:37) And I wrote that just because I was on job sites all day and, you know, going into like all these just terrible places to work, like dealing with different contractors and stuff. (00:38:49) You were talking about wanting to go and talk to blue collar people and all. (00:38:52) It's like, that's what I did for work basically for eight years was build long-term relationships with people in blue collar. (00:38:57) I was in the industrial space, so I would talk sometimes, I'd talk to 20 different people a day, you know? (00:39:03) When you sit in a job site trailer and talk to a group of dudes, and you're not there with some news camera, you're just there as like a random dude, like you hear so much about what really goes on behind the scenes of (00:39:14) of the structure of what builds, what builds this country and keeps it going. (00:39:18) And I think that's probably what it was. (00:39:21) It was just a, it was how I felt, but also how I guess a lot of other, like, it was just, I don't know, it just seemed like the truth. (00:39:29) So. (00:39:30) So you jotted down even to the details, like in a notebook, like those words? (00:39:35) No, it's always just on my phone. (00:39:37) I would just keep recording the, I would just keep, you know, like, so, (00:39:43) If you were to go back to TikTok, like, and look at any of those original videos. (00:39:50) So like the songs that ended up charting, let's say, like the ones that were on there that charted with Richmond, like this, I've got to get sober. (00:39:58) So literally. (00:39:59) That's a good song, man. (00:40:00) So what I did was this video I took at my property. (00:40:03) This is my carport where my camper was. (00:40:05) And I took this video. (00:40:08) I went to some sketchy virus ridden MP3 to wave file or MP4 to wave file transfer thing. (00:40:15) I would rip the audio off of this video, put this on TikTok and then put that on DistroKid. (00:40:20) And that's the, that was the song. (00:40:21) But basically like this would, this would have been the first time I played I've got to get sober all the way through. (00:40:27) Like I would just keep writing it and working on it, writing it and record myself. (00:40:30) Maybe I would record myself 30 times over the period of like 2 months. (00:40:33) You know what I mean? (00:40:34) Oh, but it's when you say writing, you mean in your head, not actually typed out or written anywhere. (00:40:39) Right. (00:40:39) It was just video. (00:40:40) It was mostly just video. (00:40:41) Over and over. (00:40:42) It's just videos. (00:40:43) I'm just trying to figure out how to make it. (00:40:45) Yeah. (00:40:46) But that's what all these all these are. (00:40:48) Like the audio file from all these videos is what's is what ended up on Spotify and all that. (00:40:53) You know what I mean? (00:40:53) This is it's cool to see these videos before you blew up. (00:40:56) So this is a good song. (00:40:58) You're playing out God's. (00:40:59) So what is this at the end? (00:41:01) Yeah, these were all. (00:41:05) Don't sell your soul, brother. (00:41:07) This is the best music I've heard in a long time. (00:41:11) That's a comment before you blew up. (00:41:12) Yeah. (00:41:15) I think I had about 10,000 followers or something. (00:41:18) My home just getting What a fucking song. (00:41:21) That's a good one. (00:41:22) I'll go on And you gotta think like this was, like that was my... (00:41:30) That was when I quit drinking, you know what I mean? (00:41:31) Like so... (00:41:32) But the troubles and the sin Of the world that we're in Knocked me back off my feet So that's coming from your heart right there. (00:41:47) Just imagine... (00:41:48) God is hard and living right The thousands of people you helped with that. (00:41:53) I know how it's gonna go Yeah. (00:41:56) But it ain't gonna happen tonight So pour 'em down strong 'Til I drown And if I wake up tomorrow When that sun comes back around (00:42:14) I'll be wishing I was over It's so crazy how those cicadas and stuff come in. (00:42:23) Like, I just felt like it was a god. (00:42:27) I don't know how to-- Yeah. (00:42:29) Like, that's just off my phone. (00:42:30) All that stuff's just there, you know? (00:42:32) And the bowl They've been saving my soul From the pain that the world's put on me (00:42:42) Lord, I know that upstairs there's an old man who cares, and one day he'll set me free. (00:42:53) I'll go on the whim, start hiding the hymns. (00:42:58) That's a genius of a song. (00:43:00) That's a genius, brother. (00:43:01) That's a genius. (00:43:02) It's just crazy to think about. (00:43:06) And what's this one right before? (00:43:08) What is this? (00:43:12) Yeah. (00:43:12) So that's like the private. (00:43:16) And this was a nice recording. (00:43:17) Got it. (00:43:18) Yeah. (00:43:18) So this video got uploaded and then Draven from Radio WV would have gotten a hold of me in between this and that. (00:43:26) He watched this and was like, dude, you got, he said, we got to record that one. (00:43:31) And that, like, so I didn't have it all. (00:43:33) I just had whatever was in that video is all I had written. (00:43:35) It was, I think it was just the, (00:43:37) Chorus in the first verse. (00:43:38) Draven saw that video. (00:43:40) And said, we got to do this one. (00:43:42) Reach out to me to record. (00:43:43) And he's like, yeah, he's like, no, we got to do that one. (00:43:46) And I was like, dude, that's all I got. (00:43:47) Tell me about that guy. (00:43:49) Draven. (00:43:50) He probably is like, you know, he's probably like my best friend now. (00:43:53) We hit it off with this and we're like, we're like brothers now, I guess. (00:43:57) But he's. (00:43:58) Can you talk about like what he's doing for country, for music in general, for country music, for discovering talent, for like, I mean, he's clearly. (00:44:06) sees something in people. (00:44:08) Yeah, he's just this, he's a little bit younger than I am and he's, he wrote music and played and he's got some of his, if you look up Draven Rife, he's gonna kill me for even saying this, but he's got some pretty, dude, he can, if he was like a pop singer, he would be like, he can write the most catchy stuff ever. (00:44:25) Let's go. (00:44:26) Yeah, so click on like, I don't know, like, there you go. (00:44:29) All right. (00:44:32) That's him? (00:44:33) Yeah. (00:44:40) Where's this from? (00:44:41) Five years ago. (00:44:45) I was feeling on my way I was 10 years old Walking underneath the blanket of West Virginia snow Then I walked right by No trespass sign Here the grass looked green across property line Bye bye, bye bye You know, he could probably do, if he does like, (00:45:07) He could probably be real famous. (00:45:09) He's got a certain look. (00:45:11) That dude will sit there and he'll just like, we'll just be sitting there at like 2:00 in the morning and he'll just all of a sudden do this little thing. (00:45:16) And he's got like the most amazing first part of this like song or we just started to co-write together like in the last few months. (00:45:23) So I'm really excited for that. (00:45:24) But if you go to his, this is really funny too. (00:45:27) I'm sorry, Draven. (00:45:28) I love you, man. (00:45:29) So go to videos and go to oldest first. (00:45:32) This is what's so awesome about Draven. (00:45:34) He was originally working for this lady who was trying to develop different types of hair care products, but he thought the market was too saturated, so he was going to get into beard oil. (00:45:43) So he created Radio WV as like a fake plug page for his Burly Boy beard brand he was working with. (00:45:50) So like, if you look at, yeah, like that very first video, yeah. (00:45:56) It's like, (00:45:57) It's got all his beard products. (00:45:58) If you look, there's multiple ones like that. (00:46:01) So he started it just to do this beard thing with, and then like, I don't know, he just kind of felt called to like keep going with it and it, and it just sort of naturally progressed. (00:46:10) That too is inspiring. (00:46:11) Like you start out one way and then you discover something real special. (00:46:15) I mean, he's got a, he's got an eye for how to bring out (00:46:21) I don't know what it is like the both the audio side and the video side how to bring out the busting he says he just wants it to sound like the way he likes hearing it which kind of makes sense like it's kind of in the same way talking about when we were talking about setting the cameras up and a professional would tell you needed three lights and you're like well I think it would work with the he's just kind of like well it'll just work like this and do it in a way where he likes it yeah just do it for yourself. (00:46:44) He does it because he loves it and that and you can see it shows you know. (00:46:47) Yeah, you can see it in there. (00:46:48) And there's some good talent. (00:46:49) Like you were showing me this new lady, Gabriel. (00:46:52) Yeah, she's got it. (00:46:53) But not a lot of people would record her doing that song. (00:46:56) He's like, I don't know. (00:46:56) It just was different. (00:46:57) I just thought people ought to hear it. (00:46:59) But he's, man, it was a blessing that he came along when he did. (00:47:02) It was like, it really changed both of our lives. (00:47:06) We got to talk about that. (00:47:07) So you posted the song Richmond, North of Richmond on August 8th, 2023. (00:47:14) I remember I was at work that day when it went up. (00:47:16) Yeah. (00:47:17) So it blew the fuck up straight to #1 on the charts, 10s of millions of views and listens. (00:47:25) And a few days later on August 17th, you made a post that I thought was pretty gangster. (00:47:31) It was beautiful and gangster. (00:47:33) So one of the things you said is, it's been difficult as I browse through the 50,000 plus messages and emails I've received in the last week. (00:47:42) The stories that have been shared paint a brutally honest picture. (00:47:46) Suicide, addiction, unemployment, anxiety, depression, hopelessness, and the list goes on. (00:47:52) And then you went on to write, people in the music industry give me blank stares when I brush off $8 million offers. (00:48:01) I don't want six tour buses, 15 tractor trailers, and a jet. (00:48:05) I don't want to play stadium shows. (00:48:07) I don't want to be in the spotlight. (00:48:09) I wrote the music I wrote because I was suffering with mental health and depression. (00:48:14) These songs have connected with millions of people on such a deep level because they've been sung by someone feeling the words in the very moment they were being sung. (00:48:26) No editing, no agent, no bullshit. (00:48:28) Just some idiot and his guitar. (00:48:30) The style of music that we should have never gotten away from in the 1st place. (00:48:34) So huge props for that, for walking away from lucrative multi-million dollar record deals. (00:48:42) And I'm sure the money that was just coming your way, huge props. (00:48:47) Moments happen where the world tests you and integrity is what you do in those moments. (00:48:57) So huge props for that. (00:48:59) What was your philosophy? (00:49:00) What was your thinking behind that? (00:49:01) It was all those messages I got. (00:49:03) I mean, you can see it in the comment sections of a lot of the videos after everything happened, but people just like, (00:49:09) felt this spark like, wow, maybe we actually have a chance to, maybe we actually do have some kind of power, those people put that song there, nobody else. (00:49:19) And gave me the opportunity to make, even without signing anything, I was still able to make millions of dollars and have financial freedom. (00:49:26) And like, I just, I just felt like, I felt like if I was going to do anything like that, I'd be (00:49:36) I'd be betraying, like I would be taking those people and almost betraying them somehow, like they, I hate the big machine just like everybody else. (00:49:47) And the last thing I'd want to do is ever support it or be a part of it. (00:49:53) Like I want to watch it crash and burn, like. (00:49:56) See, this is the really important thing is whether it was betrayal or not, we'll never know, but you felt that it was, and to have the integrity (00:50:05) to walk away from the bag of money when you felt that way. (00:50:10) That's fucking epic. (00:50:14) It was also, you got to think a couple months before this, like, of course I had, you know, I had a wife and kids that I loved and like I had a lot of really important things to live for, but I didn't have a whole lot to lose. (00:50:24) Like, none of this was even really real. (00:50:27) Like, (00:50:29) I didn't care about that. (00:50:30) Like, I didn't care to lose this just as quick as I got it. (00:50:32) Like, this didn't, this was, this didn't mean anything to me. (00:50:34) It just meant something to me that like, that I could do something for, like, you know, you, it's like, even if I'm not smart enough to figure out how to fix some of my own problems in my life, the fact that I felt like I could help fix somebody else's, like that meant a hell of a lot more to me than any, that's what I didn't want to lose. (00:50:53) I didn't want to lose those people's trust or like, feel, you know what I mean? (00:50:56) Yeah. (00:50:58) And so I've just tried to make every decision around like, as best as I can, like what I think the right thing is to do. (00:51:05) And who knows what the hell the right thing is to do, but I just try to follow, we all have that little voice in us like that. (00:51:11) We all have some, and I think sometimes we mask, it's hard for us to listen to that little voice, whether it's like, whether it's our gluttony or our lust or our, we numb ourselves with medications or with, (00:51:29) alcohol or we scroll on YouTube for four hours a night and instead of because we don't want to listen to our conscious but there is this like very intelligent discerning thing inside of us that's able to tell us what's right and wrong and it's a spiritual thing I guess and I just try to I just try to listen to that when I can. (00:51:48) I don't know. (00:51:49) I just still feel like I haven't done enough. (00:51:51) I think you I think you did a lot. (00:51:53) I think you did a lot. (00:51:54) I think you're an inspiration. (00:51:56) You've helped (00:51:58) a huge number of people. (00:51:59) And you're also an inspiration to the other side of it, which is the artists and just the humans to have integrity. (00:52:05) I don't think people realize how much of A test of integrity, fame, money, you know, power also is, you know, Rogan and I talk about this quite a bit. (00:52:20) We get to see, I mean, Joe especially, but I haven't, I've had a bit of the same. (00:52:26) You get to (00:52:28) see people become famous. (00:52:30) And you get to see how they deal with that. (00:52:34) And it's not easy. (00:52:35) A lot of people will sell themselves a bit, sell the soul a bit, give away a bit of their integrity, of the spirit that made them who they are. (00:52:45) You get caught up in the wave of it, you know? (00:52:47) And so to keep holding on to that, that's a powerful thing. (00:52:52) That's a really powerful thing. (00:52:53) Yeah, that's all I got though, you know? (00:52:55) When you lose that, what the hell are you like? (00:52:58) And you see it, like you see these celebrity people that just like fall off the, they fall off this, they go off the deep end. (00:53:04) It's like, you got to have, you have to have something in your life to, and to keep you centered and to keep you, know, your whole perception of reality and like your just existence and reality is all contingent upon this sort of like this center that you exist in. (00:53:20) And you have to, (00:53:21) If you don't have that, then you're just flying through space. (00:53:24) I mean, we're all just riding on this rock that's going who knows how fast. (00:53:28) You said something, I think, to Jocko that I really liked. (00:53:33) Everything that has purpose behind it comes with risk. (00:53:38) So there in that moment, I mean, you're taking a hell of a risk. (00:53:42) I was terrified. (00:53:44) I talked about this a little bit with him too, but I was terrified to even put the song out. (00:53:47) Like I knew I was going to be the subject of scrutiny and judgment. (00:53:50) And I knew people were going to like, you know, I kind of knew all that was going to happen. (00:53:54) I was like going back to that, talking about crowds, like to stand in front of thousands of people and everybody be in some sense of unity. (00:54:04) Like a lot of times when I end the shows, I'll always, I'll always end with this statement that just says, (00:54:11) no matter what, no matter how you feel when you go online, everyone feels so small and insignificant and powerless. (00:54:21) But I just say, no matter how they make you feel online or when you turn on the TV or when you look at polling numbers or whatever, like when you just look at all this trash that we digest every day, like you're, there's always, there will always be more of us than them and all that. (00:54:39) And, but like, (00:54:40) to see that, just to see the light in people's eyes when you say that, but the truth is like, and it's like, who is us and who is them? (00:54:46) And it's like, us just represents humanity and like, and all the things we talked about so far, like just. (00:54:56) the fire and the chaos, but also the love and just, life. (00:55:01) Life is just such a crazy, complicated, beautiful, disastrous thing. (00:55:06) And then them is like, it is, it's the power structure. (00:55:09) It's the, it's that same terrible side of us that created things like the Soviet Union and (00:55:15) and is ultimately what's created this like monster that we all live under today, which now doesn't just exist within the confines of the Soviet Union, but seems to almost be a global epidemic. (00:55:26) And then that song became the rebel call against that, against the power structures that creates that. (00:55:35) Yeah, it's like, how much fire am I willing to play with? (00:55:37) Because I know at some point I am going to get burned from it. (00:55:40) I just pray a lot that God, I don't have a lot of self-worth in myself anyway, so I don't really care what they say or do to me, or I don't care, like, I don't even care if I die, whatever. (00:55:50) Just don't, just protect the people I love is all. (00:55:53) That's all I ask of God. (00:55:55) I have this dream of just creating this parallel system that sits beside all these stupid systems that we live under, that are all sort of engulfed in this thing that we talked about at the beginning, this, (00:56:07) this type of structure, where none of us, we're all just robots. (00:56:10) And it's like if we hate, if we hate the way music is and all these artists are complaining about the way the venues are monopolized and the ticket sales are monopolized, then let's just go find other places to play music because there's so many people hungry for music in places that don't ever get it. (00:56:26) And if you look at it, there's so many passionate people that are fighting all these different causes, like just in food. (00:56:33) It's the word they use for (00:56:35) for more or less starvation, it's a more polite, it's called food insecurity. (00:56:38) But if you look up just in Virginia, just where I live in Virginia, in the rural areas, how much food insecurity there is and how many empty vacant farms there are. (00:56:48) It's like, this is an obvious problem that we should be on Twitter talking about nonstop. (00:56:53) Like this is like everyone has to eat, you know? (00:56:56) It don't matter what you vote for or what, like what you look like or any of that crap. (00:57:00) You can, you know, like, (00:57:03) So like, let's just like, why are we living in a country where we have, why are we living in a country where half of us are obese and eating shit food and don't know any better? (00:57:12) And then the other half of us don't have, like, how does, it's just, it's lack of leadership that's caused dysfunction. (00:57:17) And so if we're tired of that, then (00:57:20) then let's just fix it. (00:57:21) Like we don't need anybody's permission. (00:57:23) Like that's the whole beauty, like that's the whole beauty of what America is, like we don't, we don't need some greasy haired corporate schmuck to give us permission to go fix all these things that are wrong. (00:57:33) Let's just go do it. (00:57:34) And if they don't like it, fuck them, you know? (00:57:37) In all domains of life, from food to the music industry, honestly, to education, also to government itself, all of it. (00:57:48) And that, your music is also just the soundtrack to that spirit that makes America great of just constantly trying to revitalize itself. (00:58:03) When the bullshit piles up a little too high, there's that revolutionary spirit that says, like, we need to fix this shit. (00:58:10) And that inspiration that created this country was from years of people living under tyranny. (00:58:15) Like we forget the story of the people who really created this country. (00:58:18) Like it's funny, one of the statements I made at the very beginning that got taken way out of context, but I wasn't in a position to like even begin to have a conversation about it, as I made this comment early on in one of the shows about (00:58:31) about how our diversity is a strength. (00:58:34) But that term has been hijacked now to mean something a lot different than what it really means. (00:58:39) But it's like, think about how many different people came together just at the founding of this country. (00:58:44) people who spoke different languages, different cultures, religions, ways of thinking. (00:58:47) So many different people came together to even create this place now. (00:58:50) And like we've just forgotten about all that. (00:58:53) They didn't all come here because they wanted to ride on some miserable boat ride and risk their whole lives to go to live in some crazy jungle, essentially, that had no structure, like no infrastructure, no medicine, no, like they didn't come here for like some glorified camping trip. (00:59:07) It's because they were tired of like generations of being persecuted and living under tyranny and not being allowed to practice their (00:59:14) it's not like they wanted freedom of religion and they didn't want separation of church and state because they were a bunch of goody two-shoes and they love going to church every Sunday. (00:59:21) It's because they weren't allowed to believe in what they believed in because some asshole king or some hierarchy told them they couldn't and they were just tired of it. (00:59:28) That's what we're losing now. (00:59:29) It's like we've forgotten that we're those people. (00:59:31) Like the same structures that have plagued this country are (00:59:35) They're multinational corporations and it's just the ideology behind them and their structure is what the problem is. (00:59:42) Yeah, I mean, it's multinational corporations. (00:59:45) It's nation states that are deeply corrupt and are authoritarian and ultimately abuse power and yes, create elements of tyranny. (00:59:58) And from that, the human spirit rises. (01:00:04) Like I said, with songs like the ones you write or at the finding in this country, that's why all this diverse outcasts come together and write something as crazy as all men are created equal. (01:00:19) What a gangster line. (01:00:22) I guess not an easy thing to take a lot of that stuff for granted now, but that's not an easy thing to come up with. (01:00:28) That's a really gutsy thing to see the value in (01:00:34) all people equally. (01:00:35) And of course, they also were suffering from delusion. (01:00:41) they didn't see black people as equal. (01:00:45) They didn't see women as equal. (01:00:47) But even that first leap of like all men are created equal, that's like a gigantic fuck you to the past. (01:00:54) Taking that leap forward really took a lot in an age and a time when (01:00:59) when it probably sounded, and it's not like they just made a statement and put it on Twitter. (01:01:03) Like they, like think about how much, just think about the insanity. (01:01:09) Like I can't even conceptualize the insanity of what took place from the time that, like even from the Revolutionary War until now to try to preserve that idea. (01:01:18) You know, so, like so much has happened and so much sacrifice has been made and just so many hours of labor and thought and intensity. (01:01:25) Even the 20th century's got two world wars. (01:01:28) And especially in the Second World War, the United States played a very crucial role. (01:01:34) And there was a lot of ideological, like battle of ideas going on at that time of the role of war and peace, of the role of the United States as the center place for the ideal of human freedom and human rights. (01:01:51) Yeah, we've continued to innovate. (01:01:53) So I'd love to get back to talking to blue collar people you mentioned. (01:01:59) Those are some of my favorite people. (01:02:00) So it was actually really cool to find out that for many years of your life, basically the way you made a living is talking to blue collar people and getting their story. (01:02:11) So I'm traveling across the world for a bit, but of course the world that I love the most and I'm most curious about is the different subcultures and towns of the United States. (01:02:24) So I took a road trip across the US (01:02:28) in my early 20s for several months. (01:02:31) And that was like a transformative experience for me. (01:02:33) And that's something, one of the luxuries I have is to have the freedom to do whatever the hell I want now. (01:02:42) And so I wanna take a road trip across the United States for several months. (01:02:48) And one of the things I wanted to do is to just to talk to people in small towns (01:02:55) in Middle America. (01:02:56) I don't know what words to put on it, but to talk to the very people that you talked about, that construction workers, plumbers, waitresses, oil rig workers, just people that do something real, people that are real, (01:03:19) that don't make much money, that struggle, but have a, as you talked about, have like a richness to them. (01:03:28) That's not often revealed, that's not often talked about. (01:03:30) So maybe can you speak to that, to your time with Blue Collar Folk? (01:03:35) When I got all those messages at the, we were talking about early on, earlier in this, like so many of them, and even now, (01:03:43) It's even since I, even like in the last couple of days, I've gotten some where they start with, Hey, I'm a nobody, but like that's how a lot of those start, you know? (01:03:52) Like the nobodies of the world, if you wanna call them, like that's, it's frustrating that the people who literally have built and preserve and maintain the structure of society that we all comfortably live in, (01:04:10) those people have the least amount of representation. (01:04:14) They're ignored just because of the way the social hierarchy exists. (01:04:17) But some of the most dim-witted, irrelevant, terrible people are put here and are idolized and spotlighted and they're all over television and they're all over the internet and we act like they're kings and queens and like that they're royalty. (01:04:35) And then all these people who do jobs that (01:04:39) Most of us will be too, either wouldn't have the, even the ability to do, we'd be, like how many people are gonna go underwater and weld? (01:04:50) But if we didn't have underwater welders, like one of my best friends whose name is also Jocko, funny enough, the dude worked 70, 80 hours every week. (01:04:58) He's on the Chesapeake Bay tunnel job now. (01:05:01) But the dude's gotten up on, gotten on heights that I couldn't get on. (01:05:05) He's went underground places I wouldn't go and (01:05:09) Nobody will ever know, like nobody even knows those people's stories or what they went through or like the kind of lives they lived. (01:05:15) And they're like the people who create the fabric of society and even the waitresses and the waiters and like all these factory jobs that I worked in, all those people, like talk about the craziest place I ever worked and the craziest people I ever met was this little place called Perfect Air in Marion, North Carolina. (01:05:30) And it was this commercial air conditioning factory, which is I think closed now, but (01:05:35) they didn't pay very well. (01:05:36) And so everyone they hired was either people that had criminal backgrounds who couldn't get jobs elsewhere or idiots who dropped out of high school and couldn't work elsewhere like me. (01:05:46) And so I was 18 years old working in this place with people who are mostly in their 50s and 60s. (01:05:50) But you want to talk about being exposed to just a whole nother world of people like, and just the stories and the just (01:05:57) Those people are far more interesting than many of the people that we consider to be celebrities. (01:06:02) Like most people who are celebrities are just pretty boring and airheaded and don't really even know what real life is about. (01:06:07) They're pretty unrelatable to the rest of the world. (01:06:09) And so it would be really cool. (01:06:11) I mean, that's the whole reason that I want to go out and do these shows in places that haven't had music in them in 10 years, because those people, like that is America to me. (01:06:18) You know, how many people in Pittsburgh have been an hour outside of Pittsburgh? (01:06:21) And even in Virginia, if you lived in Northern Virginia and you drive 2 1/2 hours southwest, you're in a whole other planet. (01:06:27) Like (01:06:28) the people, the accents, the culture. (01:06:30) And so I feel driven in the same way. (01:06:33) Like I would love to, I would love to find a way to try to bridge that cultural gap, to make those people relevant and to make, because they are like some of the most, and it's funny because we emulate a lot of those people. (01:06:45) Like, modern country music is a bunch of people emulating those people. (01:06:51) Right. (01:06:51) And there's also like, I love people that have a skill. (01:06:56) and become masters of that skill also. (01:06:59) So that element is also there, even if it's like insanely difficult work, like being a miner, like there's skill to that. (01:07:06) There's stories there. (01:07:07) There's like... (01:07:08) what it takes to do that. (01:07:10) So I mean, some of my favorite humans are engineers and all they do is solve really hard problems and they develop, I mean, it's a pain in the ass job. (01:07:20) Yeah. (01:07:20) Anything in the factory is extremely difficult, but you learn so much about what it takes to solve intricate, like nuanced problems in the physical world. (01:07:31) So coal mining, oil rigs, like you mentioned, welding. (01:07:35) That's a fascinating line of work. (01:07:37) And those are trades that are in many cases dying because we don't, because they aren't popular in culture anymore. (01:07:44) Everything from agricultural to plumbing and electrical, it's like, those are all areas that I think if you were to go out and talk to some of those people and shed light on it, would, like you could change the entire landscape in America of how (01:07:59) how it's perceived and like and make it cool you know yeah so thank you what you're doing on that front I I want to say I wrote it down please if you know people that would be willing to talk reach out to me a good way to do that is lexfriedman.com/contact this was another one of the things early on that I had an idea about and I thought was getting done and it wasn't that I I've got to go back and try to figure out is doing prison shows and uh (01:08:27) I'm doing rehab shows and all that, but I am really intrigued with like going into those places and trying to immerse myself and just the mental state that those people are in and like, it's not talked about a whole lot, but. (01:08:42) Also people who get out, ex-convicts, I mean, that, (01:08:47) That's a hard life. (01:08:49) That's just a hard life to try to reintegrate back into society. (01:08:52) Yeah. (01:08:53) And a lot of those people at Perfect Aire that I worked with, they almost all were in some form of legal trouble. (01:08:59) Like there was a lady that worked on the assembly line massage me named Denise. (01:09:03) And her and her husband had been manufacturing methamphetamine and he took the fall for most of it. (01:09:08) She only had to go on probation. (01:09:10) He was still in prison. (01:09:11) But man, Denise was a very sweet lady. (01:09:14) And aside from the meth manufacturing, she was like, great, and just such a character, in such a good way. (01:09:21) And so it's like, yeah, just. (01:09:23) Denise, lexfreeman.com slash contact. (01:09:27) Let's talk. (01:09:28) I mean, yeah, you know, like both, sort of the plumbers and the coal miners and Denise with the old meth habits. (01:09:38) I mean, (01:09:40) They're walking the line of like, surviving is hard. (01:09:45) Yeah. (01:09:45) So you have to do a real hard job. (01:09:48) And then you also have to live life, which is in general hard. (01:09:54) You know, divorce, kids, people die, you lose like the medical issues and that can destroy you completely. (01:10:02) All of a sudden something happens, you can't afford it. (01:10:04) And then the insurance system (01:10:08) destroys people, all of that. (01:10:10) So you have to somehow navigate life while working your ass off in a real hard job. (01:10:14) And those people, they have stories. (01:10:18) That's a real pain. (01:10:19) And from that pain, from that anger, that's where Richmond, north of Richmond, that was that, that you could just feel their pain come through with that song and with your other work. (01:10:32) So that, like there is a landscape of suffering. (01:10:36) Yeah, it doesn't have to be that, we don't all have to be that decentralized either. (01:10:41) Like if there is that much commonality among people, which I do believe there is, like just innately in suffering. (01:10:48) And yeah, like there's a guy in West Virginia that I talked to that he's got a piece of property beside of mine that he was interested in selling, but the reason he's got this dream of opening a (01:11:02) like putting some cabins there and renting them out for people to come Airbnb. (01:11:05) He works at Lowe's full-time, but his son's got this, his son's like 19 and he's got this heart surgery he's got to have. (01:11:12) And so he's trying to sell the place for that. (01:11:14) And just like, just that guy and all you'd ever see him as is the guy that works at Lowe's, like pulling lumber or whatever, but he's got this very, (01:11:22) insanely complex life he's trying to manage. (01:11:24) He doesn't want to lose a son. (01:11:26) Like he's just going to sell everything. (01:11:27) And like at one point in time, maybe the church served that role of like when people really fell off track and they didn't have a support system and they were like on this tiny boat out in the ocean, they figured out some kind of way to rally it. (01:11:38) In my mind, that's like the dream of all this. (01:11:40) If I die and there's any like legacy left or anything done, it's like finding a way to take (01:11:46) all the people that fill that role and organizing them and empowering them and protecting them. (01:11:51) It's rebuilding the community, but in a real way, not in like this fairytale bullshit. (01:11:55) Everybody's going to love each other and we're all just going to be one big happy family. (01:11:58) Like everybody's still going to get mad and hate each other in certain ways. (01:12:02) That's good. (01:12:02) Like we need those tornadoes. (01:12:04) Like you said, we need people pissed off and angry and we need people to feel like they can be angry and open about things that are wrong. (01:12:11) Like people should be able to speak their mind and we shouldn't all just kiss each other's ass and we shouldn't all just pretend to be overly polite and say, hey, Debbie, you have a good weekend? (01:12:19) Like you said, like we need all this controversy and this turmoil and like we need the hell of what that side that the internet brings out in people, but it just needs to be in real life. (01:12:28) And it needs to be in a way where we're all like, (01:12:30) we all are at least chasing the same common goal, which is probably that we don't want to starve and we want to have decent health and we want to be able to like provide a decent life for our kids, or at least we just don't, we just want to live a decent life. (01:12:43) Like I think somehow that fixes like, that fixes what you describe, like the people who fall in despair and are isolated and it's a terrifying world to live in. (01:12:57) It's that principle. (01:12:58) Again, this is, I need a phone a friend thing where we can just keep calling Jordan for all these things. (01:13:02) But like he explains, there's this principle in the Bible about those who, about the more you have, the more you'll receive and the less you have, the less you'll receive kind of a thing. (01:13:12) And it's just a universal law in society where it seems like the lower you get to the bottom, it's almost like the more, like the less resources you have available and the less friends you have. (01:13:22) And it's like you just, (01:13:24) The further you go snowballs into where it's like people just hit rock bottom and then what? (01:13:29) It's like when you get out of prison, what are you supposed to do? (01:13:32) Or when you're a veteran with mental health, like what are you supposed to do? (01:13:35) Like in my mind, that's what the church is supposed to be there for is like, but obviously it doesn't fill that role anymore. (01:13:43) To some people, at least religion does a little bit. (01:13:48) It gives, it's at least a foundation of community, a foundation of hope. (01:13:54) for people when they're really struggling. (01:13:57) Yeah. (01:13:58) You got thousands of messages like you talked about from people. (01:14:03) You got to talk to thousands of people about their pain. (01:14:07) Through your work, through your music, you've been an inspiration to those people to find a way out of the pain. (01:14:12) Can you tell the full story of your own lowest point? (01:14:18) Before all of this, before the music, (01:14:22) before you blew up, can you take me through the story of the depression, the drinking, and just the roughest times in your life? (01:14:34) It's sometimes it's not even, you know, it's funny, but it's almost not even where you're at in life. (01:14:40) It's where you perceive yourself at in life and what your goals are moving forward. (01:14:45) And I think like, you know, I was, I dropped out of high school at 17, basically ran away from home. (01:14:52) I just, I couldn't, I have always had this authority problem. (01:14:55) And so I just didn't want to listen to my parents. (01:14:58) I didn't want to go to college. (01:15:00) I just wanted to go move into the mountains. (01:15:02) I was running away from responsibility, I guess, is what I was doing, you know? (01:15:05) And so got this girl pregnant, had my first kid when I was 18 or just about to turn 19. (01:15:12) And like I said, I'm working in the air conditioning factory with a bunch of convicted felons. (01:15:17) And so from there, everything was just reactionary. (01:15:19) I never really had a plan. (01:15:21) I would jump from job to job, just like most everybody else. (01:15:23) I don't know. (01:15:23) I just got to a point where I guess I just quit believing in myself. (01:15:27) And I knew that I wasn't doing, I just knew I wasn't doing, I wasn't feeling my purpose and I wasn't being the best version of myself I could be. (01:15:35) And so the alternative to like facing yourself in the mirror and accepting that I'm not a shitty person, I've just let myself (01:15:44) fall. (01:15:44) it's like it's so hard to accept when you've had that fall that it's just easier to just, to get drunk and, just do the bare minimum you can to keep everything sort of kind of moving along. (01:15:57) But you don't really care if you live or die. (01:15:59) You don't really care about much anything. (01:16:01) Like your whole, you know, I don't know, life is just so beautiful when you're a child. (01:16:04) It's so imaginative and exploratory and you're learning all these things and you just, you just can't wait to be an adult because you're just going to go out and do all these incredible, (01:16:14) You know, and then- You face the reality of it. (01:16:16) Yeah, and the pressure and the fear of failure. (01:16:18) Like I think maybe even my own fear of failure is what drove me. (01:16:23) But yeah, you just, and you think negatively about yourself for so many days and weeks and months, and you like, you don't even have a real self-awareness of like what you're doing or how destructive you've become, but you always have that discernment in you, that like, that conscious, you know, that little voice in your. (01:16:43) and your spirit that is letting you know you're messing up, you know? (01:16:47) I was almost like, I was wrestling with myself, you know? (01:16:51) And so, I don't know, I just got to a point where it's just like, yeah, just a very overwhelming sense of numbness. (01:17:04) Like nothing really, nothing that mattered before really matters anymore. (01:17:10) Like, I guess that's probably, to me, the definition of depression is when all the things you love and care about are just meaningless and you can't find, you really can't find meaning or purpose or excitement in anything, you know? (01:17:25) Like, I think, especially with men that commit suicide, it's a prolonged period of that. (01:17:33) It's not like they just wake up one day and they have a bad day and they kill themselves. (01:17:38) It's like, (01:17:39) you self-reflect negatively about yourself and your life, and you don't do the things that you're supposed to do every day for a long enough period of time. (01:17:46) And it's like, pretty soon you've built this whole mountain of mismanaged, neglected stuff, for lack of a better word, like this mountain that you have to climb back up in order to fix all these things that you should have been doing all along. (01:18:05) And then on the other side of it, it's like, well, I could just die. (01:18:08) Like that seems a lot, like it's almost like for, I think from a man's perspective, maybe the friends that I've had that I've lost, it seems like a lot of times you think you'd never see it coming, you know? (01:18:20) Like, I don't know, maybe that's a general thing with, it seems like a lot of times men mask that better and you don't pick up on it as much, but I think it's like you just dig yourself into a point to where, (01:18:32) It's like you have a mountain of responsibility in front of you that you haven't faced, that you don't know how to face, and you haven't been able to do so for a long time. (01:18:41) But there's this really easy detour and it's just, you know, putting your big toe on the trigger. (01:18:47) And it's like, which one of those are, I don't know, like they both seem, but at that point, your perception of reality is so distorted that like, you don't, all the things that, (01:18:59) that would normally compel you to move along like your, like love and joy and like your drive to be that. (01:19:09) None of that really, it's not there for you to even contemplate, if that makes sense. (01:19:13) It's like that part is almost like, at least for a little while, invisible. (01:19:17) And all you see is fear and responsibility and (01:19:23) Just this, like I said, I just envision it like a mountain that you don't really know if you're even able to climb. (01:19:28) And then the other option is just, so I think that's probably where a lot of people go. (01:19:36) And that's probably where I was, was just like, you know. (01:19:41) Yeah, I mean, there is the, it's not just responsibilities, it's the immensity of it, the mountain. (01:19:47) And I think you're accurately describing how it happens, which is gradually. (01:19:52) Yeah. (01:19:53) Seeing yourself in a negative light over time slowly suffocates you. (01:19:58) And then the...