Congress has abdicated its constitutional responsibilities and become a rubber stamp for the president. The leadership there are 'sad, pathetic people' who fail to act as a separate, co-equal branch of government — whether on tariffs or declaring war.

(00:00:00) All right, everybody, we've got an incredible guest today. (00:00:03) Governor Josh Shapiro is here, obviously governor of Pennsylvania. (00:00:07) He's got record-setting popularity in Pennsylvania right now, 60% approval, at least. (00:00:13) He's a moderate. (00:00:15) He's focused on getting done, GSD. (00:00:17) He's tough on crime, ranked #1, according to my notes, on charging Medicaid fraud. (00:00:23) He's pro-data center. (00:00:24) He's got a nuanced take on Israel, and he's a baller, apparently. (00:00:29) Cut to the table. (00:00:32) Got him. (00:00:34) There he is. (00:00:34) Here's your governor. (00:00:37) Look at those short shorts. (00:00:38) Holy cow. (00:00:39) Incredible. (00:00:40) Wow. (00:00:40) It's the late 80s. (00:00:44) Man, based on the VHS tape, this looks like the 80s. (00:00:47) Yeah, that was 1990, I think. (00:00:50) Look at that playing the point. (00:00:52) There you go. (00:00:53) Very nice. (00:00:53) Very nice. (00:00:54) All right. (00:00:54) That was back when people shot mid-range jumpers. (00:00:58) They don't do that anymore, man. (00:00:59) They don't do that. (00:01:00) They should. (00:01:01) All threes. (00:01:02) Yeah. (00:01:02) I mean, we have a couple of players and we were talking before the show started. (00:01:06) You're obviously a big Philly fan. (00:01:08) I'm a big Knick fan. (00:01:08) So I will see you at the games. (00:01:11) By the way, with all due respect, and I hope we have a good conversation here, I hope to never see you at the games. (00:01:18) Because if you're showing up in Philly with all your Knicks crap on, I'm not going to be a happy guy. (00:01:23) Oh, look at his selfie courtside with my friend Dave, who is one of the co-owners of the team, who's a mutual friend of ours, who I think egged you on a little bit to come on the program here. (00:01:33) He did. (00:01:34) Which I appreciate. (00:01:35) He said, Go on all in. (00:01:36) They have thoughtful conversations and anxious to have one with you. (00:01:39) So thanks for having me. (00:01:40) There's so much for us to talk about, but I thought I would start with your track record in Pennsylvania. (00:01:46) And the reason I wanted to start there is because there's a bit of a collision course happening right now between you and Gavin. (00:01:51) Gavin's got what I would describe as a variable tenure here in California. (00:01:57) I left California for Texas because I just thought it was a bit of a disaster. (00:02:00) But you're doing great in your state. (00:02:03) And (00:02:04) That's in the face of New York, my hometown, New Jersey, Boston, like losing a lot of business leaders. (00:02:11) And you've been scoring some big wins. (00:02:14) So when you look at your track record, maybe you could just educate the audience on what you've gotten done. (00:02:20) And maybe in comparison to what's happening in those other states with other Democratic leaders, because you seem to be maybe the exception to this rule that Democrats aren't getting it done on a business level. (00:02:34) Look, I'm proud of what we've done. (00:02:35) I'm not in comparison with Gavin or any other Democratic governor. (00:02:39) I'll just talk about what we've done here in Pennsylvania. (00:02:41) We are a pro-growth state. (00:02:44) We want businesses to come here and grow. (00:02:47) I'm proud of the fact that we've created more jobs in all but two states in the entire country. (00:02:52) We've cut taxes seven different times to be more competitive, cut taxes for small businesses, also for families trying to afford childcare for seniors, for working (00:03:02) Pennsylvanians. (00:03:03) We've taken our permitting process. (00:03:05) That's usually the ticket you need, say, to build your building, right? (00:03:10) If you're trying to build something here in Pennsylvania, we were bottom five in the country. (00:03:14) I think we're now a national model, easily top five in terms of speed. (00:03:18) We've got a money back guarantee on all of our permits. (00:03:21) If we don't get you your permit in time, we'll give you your money back. (00:03:24) And fun fact, we've issued 40 million permits during my time as governor. (00:03:28) We've only had to issue 5 refunds, meaning only five (00:03:32) of those permits were late. (00:03:34) We are now the only growing economy in the northeastern part of the United States. (00:03:39) At the same time, we're investing in workforce development, especially if you don't have a college degree, tripling funding for vo-tech and apprenticeship programs and understanding the need to take the workforce we have today and prepare them for jobs here in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. (00:03:56) I'm proud that we've got an unemployment rate below the national rate consistently over the last 32 (00:04:02) months. (00:04:03) I think it is really critical that every kid born in Pennsylvania gets a great quality education, that kid has a safe St. (00:04:10) to walk down, to get to school or wherever else they're going, and that they've got a job in the community that they love. (00:04:16) Those to me are the core foundational principles. (00:04:19) It's what we focus on every single day. (00:04:21) Our mantra, as you said at the top, is GSD, get done. (00:04:25) Those are the areas where we focus on getting done. (00:04:28) And I think we're putting a lot of points on the board every single day that's having a meaningful difference in people's lives. (00:04:34) How are you getting that done? (00:04:35) Just take the permitting as an example. (00:04:38) Why is it so dysfunctional in California? (00:04:41) Obviously, I'm an investor in technology companies and we just saw red tape after red tape. (00:04:46) Then on housing, it's incredibly hard to build anything. (00:04:49) The NIMBYism, if you cast a shadow, nothing can be built. (00:04:53) And then housing prices keep going up. (00:04:55) And if you want to hire a nanny or a teacher, or if a firefighter moves in, they can't even afford a home in the community that they're servicing. (00:05:05) So how did you fix this? (00:05:07) And why can't other states not fix it? (00:05:11) I mean, look, I can't speak to how it's done in California. (00:05:14) I'll just tell you, in Pennsylvania, the way we start the conversation is by recognizing permits are critically important to economic development and to creating jobs, right? (00:05:24) If we, the government, can move at the speed of business, (00:05:28) If I can give you as a CEO predictability to know your business is going to be open in six months instead of three years, right, because the permit took too long, then you're going to want to invest here. (00:05:39) So we sort of start with the important idea that permits matter. (00:05:42) Second, when you come into our state government to get your permit, let's just use building a building as an example, right? (00:05:50) We want to get to yes. (00:05:51) We still want to protect the environment and public health and public safety, and we do that, but we want to get to yes. (00:05:57) So our attitude (00:05:58) has shifted. (00:05:59) Third, we've got to have that money back guarantee because that money back guarantee holds the bureaucracy accountable. (00:06:05) Now, I will tell you that some of this we've done administratively, meaning I've signed executive orders and we've made those changes. (00:06:12) But on other things, we've worked with the legislature to pass new laws to speed up our permitting. (00:06:17) And it hasn't always been easy. (00:06:19) Understand, I'm A Democrat as a governor. (00:06:21) I've got a divided legislature. (00:06:23) I was the only governor for a while with a divided legislature. (00:06:26) Now there's one other. (00:06:28) I've got a Senate led by Republicans by just two seats and a House led by Democrats by just one seat. (00:06:34) But this is an area where I've been able to bring Democrats and Republicans together in order to make progress in terms of passing this permitting reform. (00:06:42) And again, (00:06:43) The proof is in the pudding. (00:06:44) What we are seeing is that businesses are coming here and the economy is growing. (00:06:49) Let me give you one more example. (00:06:51) This may seem really small to you, but it's a big deal, okay? (00:06:54) When I talk about a permit, if you want to be a barber in Pennsylvania, you need a permit, or technically it's called a license, but I put it all under one. (00:07:02) Yeah, some kind of certificate, yeah. (00:07:03) Right. (00:07:04) The day I took office, it took 20 days for a barber to get their permit, to be able to go out and cut hair. (00:07:12) Today you get it same day, you get it within that day. (00:07:15) That may seem silly to you, but understand, I called my barber, I asked him, he said, how many heads do you cut a day? (00:07:21) He said, about 10 a day. (00:07:22) At 20 bucks a pop, 200 bucks a day for 20 days. (00:07:27) That's real money, that's thousands of dollars that we're putting into that barber's pocket just because we got (00:07:34) them their permit more quickly. (00:07:36) So I know it may sound nerdy, it may sound wonky, but whether you're building some big building that's going to house hundreds of workers or thousands of people who are living there, or whether you're the local barber that everybody needs to go to get their hair cut, this stuff matters. (00:07:52) And the quicker you are, the more jobs you create and the more money you put in people's pockets. (00:07:57) It also matters, I think, on a philosophical basis of who is the government working for, themselves and their (00:08:04) timelines or for the people who put them in office. (00:08:07) And I think that's the philosophy, just at least watching it happen in New York and California, it's the opposite of what you described. (00:08:14) There's no sense of urgency. (00:08:15) And there's almost a situation where people believe it's intractable, that they can't change it. (00:08:21) And so (00:08:22) But that's, I think, such an important point is that you actually made it happen. (00:08:26) I think that's a great point. (00:08:27) I want to focus on what you just said there. (00:08:30) First off, I start the conversation believing that government can be a force for good in people's lives. (00:08:36) Second, that we got to figure out a way to get to yes, whether it's building a building or whether it's getting that mom the support she needs for her kid with autism who needs support. (00:08:45) We got to figure out a way to get to yes and get them that help. (00:08:49) And then you mentioned in your question the way (00:08:52) people get, I don't recall if you used the word frustrated or they feel, that government's sort of holding them back, right? (00:09:00) Not sure of the words you're not. (00:09:01) It's impressive in a way, right? (00:09:02) If you have that experience three or four times, whether it's at the airport or getting your driver's license or getting the hair cutting, (00:09:09) certificate, like it's just oppressive over time. (00:09:11) You just feel like the government's working against you. (00:09:13) Yeah, and what does that person feel after they try and get their permit, they can't get it? (00:09:18) They try and open up their small business, it won't work. (00:09:20) They get frustrated. (00:09:21) By the way, they get pissed. (00:09:23) And then not only are they pissed at that agency or that governor or they're pissed at that state government, they also grow, and this is an important point, (00:09:34) a little more cynical about government and a little bit more frustrated about the process. (00:09:40) And when that happens, I think that creates more distrust in our system. (00:09:44) And it creates more opportunity for, I think, frankly, dark voices on extremes to come in and take advantage of people. (00:09:52) I find that, you know, if we get it done the right way, if we process things quickly, if we get people to yes, then maybe a byproduct of that is a little bit less cynicism in our system. (00:10:04) Yeah, and the horseshoe theory that you're kind of referencing there, these two extremes just taking over the conversation, that's not what the majority of the country wants. (00:10:14) They want to just live in a high functioning society. (00:10:16) I was curious how you look at fraud, waste, fraud, and abuse. (00:10:23) My friend Elon, to drop a name, you know, did this doge thing. (00:10:26) It was a little controversial, but I think what we've seen is, hey, 20, 30% of every tax dollar collected is wasted. (00:10:34) Some of it's fraud, some of it's just incompetence. (00:10:37) It could be anything on that spectrum. (00:10:39) And this seems to be the Republican Party's rallying cry to beat the Democrats going into California and prosecuting people, Michigan, et cetera. (00:10:48) You seem to have gotten ahead of this. (00:10:50) You've been doing this for years. (00:10:52) So maybe you could explain your take on fighting fraud, specifically healthcare or in other areas. (00:10:58) Look, I think we've got to focus on rooting fraud out of the system. (00:11:03) Now, you and I may differ on, hey, should we spend a dollar on that initiative or not? (00:11:09) And by the way, those are super healthy differences, and we should argue that out. (00:11:12) We should debate that. (00:11:13) But where we should have no difference is if someone's stealing that dollar, instead of going to its intended purpose, we should be against that. (00:11:22) And I am. (00:11:23) Prior to serving as governor and having the privilege of sitting here in this office serving the good people of Pennsylvania, I was the state's attorney general. (00:11:31) And you'll remember back during COVID, there were those PPP loans to help our small businesses and other businesses stay afloat. (00:11:39) We'd probably agree, like, good idea, right? (00:11:40) We got to keep businesses afloat. (00:11:43) But during that time, I went out and prosecuted a whole bunch of people for stealing that PPP money, for not using it for its intended purposes. (00:11:51) Here as governor, I've maintained a similar focus through my Office of Inspector General, rooting out fraud, through making sure, by the way, we're not fronting you money when you're going out and providing, say, human services. (00:12:04) You have to submit for reimbursements, and you've got to make sure you prove that you did that work. (00:12:09) When we find that someone took advantage of the system, we're referring them to prosecutors. (00:12:13) I'm proud of the fact that we've had more Medicaid fraud prosecutions in Pennsylvania than I think any other state. (00:12:19) Maybe there was one other. (00:12:20) We're certainly toward the top of that list. (00:12:23) Proud of the fact that we've identified that. (00:12:25) We've sent it to prosecutors and we've addressed it. (00:12:28) If we can address it administratively, we do. (00:12:30) If not, we understand that those things need to be prosecuted. (00:12:33) We should have a 0 tolerance policy for that. (00:12:35) And we should make sure that if we're going to utilize a hard-earned dollar of a taxpayer (00:12:41) for a purpose, like providing someone with healthcare that they need, we got to make sure that dollar makes its way to that person so they get their healthcare. (00:12:49) And our folks are working really hard on that in Pennsylvania. (00:12:53) So pro-business, less regulation, lowering taxes, eliminating fraud, (00:13:02) And all of this is just getting done in the state. (00:13:05) And then, the next piece that in at least my community, people who are creators of businesses, venture capitalists, angel investors, (00:13:13) founders, we pay our taxes, pay a lot of taxes, depending on which state you live in. (00:13:19) And then there's this movement. (00:13:20) You should be paying more taxes in Pennsylvania, man. (00:13:22) Stop paying them elsewhere. (00:13:25) Yeah. (00:13:26) And we then get struck with this California law, and a lot of my friends have moved to Austin, where I live now. (00:13:33) They just said suddenly, hey, we want to seize 5% of whatever you got. (00:13:37) You already paid your taxes. (00:13:38) You haven't paid capital gains on some of this equity you own in your company. (00:13:42) Maybe it's paper wealth. (00:13:43) Maybe it's your company went public now and you could sell some of it, but you might crater the stock if you do. (00:13:48) And Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and California, all trying to seize assets. (00:13:55) And this has really hit the creator, the business creators in a really offensive way (00:14:02) to the point at which they're moving. (00:14:04) We lost, California lost, Sergey, Travis from Uber just fleeing, fleeing en masse in the last 12 months. (00:14:13) Do you believe in these wealth taxes and do you believe in seizing people's assets on gains they've never received? (00:14:22) It seems to be getting momentum. (00:14:24) I mean, I'll just say, we've cut taxes seven times in Pennsylvania. (00:14:27) We've got one of the lowest income taxes in the entire country. (00:14:30) That's why I'm joking with you. (00:14:32) should come to Pennsylvania and be located here. (00:14:35) And look, I mean, that kind of tax that you're describing is not something we have here. (00:14:40) It's certainly not something (00:14:42) on my agenda. (00:14:43) I do think people need to pay their fair share. (00:14:45) I think you'd agree with that. (00:14:47) We need to make sure that we are easing the burden on those who are working and who are at the lowest sort of economic point on the scale. (00:14:55) And we've got to make sure that folks at the top are paying their fair share in order to sustain our society. (00:15:01) And I think we've struck a really good balance here in Pennsylvania. (00:15:05) And I think our growth numbers, (00:15:08) bear that out. (00:15:09) I think seeing more people coming to the state bears that out. (00:15:12) And I think there's an important stat. (00:15:14) One of the things you cited in those entrepreneurs as you were going through your question is, (00:15:21) These are people who kind of started with a dream, with an idea that someone might have looked at and said, geez, I don't know about that, but they stuck with it and they built up their companies. (00:15:31) We see here in Pennsylvania, particularly when it comes to life sciences, right? (00:15:36) We're seeing people plant a flag here in Pennsylvania, start with an idea that others might think, boy, I don't know about that. (00:15:43) But then because of our tax environment in Pennsylvania, because of our pro-growth approach in Pennsylvania, we're seeing more (00:15:50) More of those small businesses, more of those small companies, especially in life sciences, survive that sort of valley where a lot of those companies go out of business and sustain themselves here. (00:16:01) Because again, I think we're showing that we're pro-growth. (00:16:04) We've got a smart tax environment for them. (00:16:07) And by the way, after we invest in them, after we give them a shot, and after they do well, we expect them to pay their fair share back to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. (00:16:15) And I think that's the approach we've taken and it's working. (00:16:19) Yeah, and so if you're not in favor of a wealth tax, what would you do to deal with maybe this disparity in wealth that we're seeing? (00:16:29) There was just some statistics that came out the other day, I'm sure you saw them. (00:16:32) The upper middle class has just been surging, middle class going down a bit, and people in the lower rungs going down as well. (00:16:40) So people may feel like they're not making enough money, (00:16:44) But in reality, what's happening is people feel other people have made a tremendous amount of money, which is true because of equity holdings are growing much better than salaries ever will. (00:16:54) And only 40%, only 50% of the country really participates in a meaningful way. (00:16:59) And equities, the other 40, 50% don't have any exposure to that. (00:17:04) So how would you deal with (00:17:06) somebody making $100 billion, $500 billion, a trillion dollars, and never selling their equity, or maybe not selling it for 20 years. (00:17:15) How do you think about that? (00:17:15) Let me make sort of three points, a Pennsylvania point, and a couple of broader points. (00:17:19) One, you cannot have a national economy that works if it's only working for the 1%. (00:17:26) And you pointed out in your question, the wage disparity and the disparity of income, you have to make sure that there is opportunity for those at all different income levels. (00:17:36) And look, as we sit here today, if you're making $1,000,000, (00:17:40) versus $50,000. (00:17:41) Take $1,000,000, you're going to be able to buy some stuff that someone at $50,000 can't buy, right? (00:17:47) We sort of understand that, but you've got to have opportunity, and you've got to have a level playing field, and you've got to have a fair shot, and you've got to have a tax system that works in a fair way. (00:17:57) So that's sort of point one. (00:17:58) Point 2 is here in Pennsylvania, we've tried to address some of that economic disparity by passing the first ever working Pennsylvanians tax credit, sort of a state side earned income tax (00:18:10) credit. (00:18:11) So what we're saying is if you're working, if you're going out and busting your hump, we're going to put some money back in your pocket. (00:18:16) About 940,000, almost a million Pennsylvanians are going to qualify for a little over 800 bucks back in their pockets. (00:18:24) So that's going to help not only today with rising costs due to a lot of these federal policies, but it's going to put money back in people's pockets, allow them to make the investments they need to make in their everyday lives. (00:18:36) Here's the third point. (00:18:37) What I would not do, because you asked what I would do, what I would not (00:18:40) do is what President Trump did at the federal level with an aid and assist from a whole bunch of circumfans in Congress by passing that budget bill or the beautiful budget bill or whatever the hell they call it. (00:18:53) In effect, what they did was they gave a tax cut for those who simply do not need it, right? (00:18:59) And by the way, (00:19:01) in the palace of truth and justice, you talk to those folks. (00:19:04) They know that they didn't need that tax cut. (00:19:06) And what happens as a result of that is I've got 500,000 Pennsylvanians who are going to lose their healthcare. (00:19:16) I've got 120,000 who've already lost their healthcare, about another 320,000 or so were likely to lose Medicaid next year. (00:19:25) I've got 26 rural hospitals that are likely to shutter because these are rural hospitals (00:19:31) that are working on an operating deficit, and they're relying so much on Medicaid, which has been slashed by the federal government. (00:19:38) So the idea that Donald Trump thought it was smart economic policy to give a tax cut to those who don't need it and pay for it with those who are struggling and create even greater economic disparities, that is going to hold back our entire economy. (00:19:53) Just take those 500,000 people who aren't going to have healthcare. (00:19:56) You're paying for that, and I'm paying for that with our private insurance. (00:20:00) So what Donald Trump has done is shifted that burden onto those who are struggling, making it harder for them, adding additional cost to the middle class. (00:20:10) And I think that is, that lacks, frankly, it's just dumb economic policy. (00:20:17) And I think it's going to set us back. (00:20:18) Here we are. (00:20:19) Politics is on the table. (00:20:20) Incredible track record you have, but let's dive into the Democratic Party. (00:20:24) I'm an independent, but grew up Irish Catholic in Brooklyn. (00:20:27) So grew up a Democrat, probably have voted, 60-40 Democrat to Republican, but always for a moderate, somebody who can get stuff done. (00:20:35) That's why I find you quite appealing. (00:20:37) But let's talk about the Democratic Party and the shellacking they got in the last election. (00:20:44) And specifically, what really troubled me, Biden didn't look like he was all there. (00:20:50) And I think we've all come to some consensus that he probably should have dropped out earlier. (00:20:54) But what was really disheartening to me was that they didn't do the speed run primary. (00:20:58) They didn't do capsule primary over that July, August period and gave you a shot and other people a shot, Pritzker, Buttigieg, whoever, to compete for the nomination. (00:21:11) Was that a huge mistake for the Democratic Party? (00:21:14) And when you look back on it, (00:21:16) Do you think that might have cost you all the election? (00:21:18) Well, look, I mean, I actually wrote about this in the book I recently published where, it became clear to me that, Joe Biden seeking another term was probably not in the best interest of the party or the country. (00:21:32) And I spoke to him directly about that and bluntly about that. (00:21:36) Once he made the decision to drop out with 100 and whatever days, (00:21:40) to go. (00:21:41) there were not many opportunities, I think, to have the kind of primary process that you're talking about. (00:21:47) I think it is important to look forward, right, and not look backwards. (00:21:51) And you said in the last election, Democrats took a shellacking. (00:21:53) Actually, if you look at 2025, it was the opposite. (00:21:56) I mean, the president's party, the Republican Party, got beat in New Jersey, got beat in Virginia, got beat here in Pennsylvania, where we won three state Supreme Court seats. (00:22:05) So obviously there's a pendulum in American politics. (00:22:10) clearly swinging back. (00:22:12) I think what's important is that we look forward. (00:22:14) And I think it's also really important for our party to have, for my party, to have a real debate and to have a real discussion about ideas. (00:22:22) What are we for and what are we willing to fight for? (00:22:25) And I realize that process may at times look a little messy. (00:22:29) I realize, and I mean this with the utmost respect, it gives folks like you on a podcast or on a show the ability to sort of pick apart, maybe try and, you know, sort of parse words or.1 Democrat (00:22:40) at another and try and create conflict. (00:22:42) But I would just say that overall, having this debate and having these issues be raised and having disagreements, that's healthy for our party. (00:22:50) And ultimately, I think our party's poised to take back power and that will make us better at governing. (00:22:56) To me, the whole purpose of running in an election is getting the chance to govern, not just winning the election. (00:23:01) And so having these debates right now puts us in a better position when we win those elections. (00:23:07) And I'm running for re-election right now in Pennsylvania. (00:23:10) going to work my ass off to win another term and earn the support of the people of Pennsylvania again. (00:23:14) And I want to continue to deliver, continue to focus on these issues that matter most. (00:23:19) And having that debate, I think, is really healthy. (00:23:21) understand looking forward is most important, but I got to go one more time in the review mirror here, which is Kamala Harris was picked because Biden had put out a criteria, hey, I want to have a woman of color as my vice president. (00:23:34) He was very explicit about that. (00:23:36) She could be qualified, unqualified, you know, moderately qualified. (00:23:41) But then when she went out to pick her VP, everybody was saying, hey, Josh Shapiro should be really in that running. (00:23:46) And she didn't pick you specifically because she didn't think she could win with the Jewish vice president. (00:23:51) Yeah, I don't respectfully, I got to push back on that. (00:23:54) And again, I've been very, very open about this. (00:23:57) Push back on it, yeah. (00:23:58) And respectfully, I'm not looking to be argumentative with you, but I was very, very detailed and very specific in my book about this process. (00:24:09) And I was very grateful to the vice president for being considered and grateful to her for the candid dialogue we had. (00:24:16) And about 48 hours before she picked Tim Walz, I pulled out and made clear that was not something I was interested in doing. (00:24:23) I thought I could serve the good people of Pennsylvania and do my best serving here as governor in a job that I absolutely love. (00:24:31) So this wasn't about her not picking me because of my faith. (00:24:35) This was about me in the end not being interested in that job. (00:24:39) Really? (00:24:41) Sincerely, yes. (00:24:42) Because it did seem like you wanted to be considered for that VP position. (00:24:46) I called Sunday evening after she and I met and had a really candid conversation to inform her that I did not want to be considered. (00:24:53) I thought she had some really good people to choose from. (00:24:56) All right, so let's move forward then, looking at winning. (00:24:59) You're going to run for governor again. (00:25:01) I assume that's going to be a shoo-in. (00:25:03) You know, you got to do the work, but it's pretty clear you'll win. (00:25:06) I appreciate your confidence there, my man. (00:25:08) No, it's clear. (00:25:09) But let's talk a little bit about if you were to run for president, which people seem to think you've got a really good shot, but you're below maybe national recognition right now. (00:25:22) We're a little bit far behind. (00:25:23) Gavin has come out. (00:25:24) Hey, I'm running. (00:25:25) I'm running. (00:25:26) Here I am. (00:25:27) He's obviously in the poll position for now. (00:25:29) I want to understand the Democratic Party and how they should proceed, because just like the right seemed to separate and you had this MAGA coalition and you had, you know, the traditional Republicans who were just aghast at Trump and his style and his behavior, et cetera. (00:25:47) Now that seems to have fractured again. (00:25:49) You have America first, America only. (00:25:51) All the supporters who were supporting Trump now have (00:25:56) come out vocally against him because of the war in Iran. (00:25:59) And then you have on your side, the socialist Democrat movement, which I think a lot of moderates are like, well, that's confusing. (00:26:05) We don't want to have more mandamis. (00:26:09) And that doesn't seem super appealing to a lot of moderates. (00:26:11) And the moderates are the ones who flipped this election and they went, the last election, they went with Trump largely, as opposed to going with Kamala. (00:26:18) So handicap for me, what has to happen (00:26:22) in the Democratic Party to win in 2028. (00:26:25) I understand why you're asking that. (00:26:26) I will answer your question. (00:26:28) I don't think anyone should be looking past these midterms. (00:26:31) And while I appreciate the confidence you have in me and maybe in the broader dynamics here, I think we need to have a national referendum in these midterms (00:26:41) on what people see happening in Washington, D.C., the chaos and the corruption that exists there. (00:26:48) I think people need to show up in record numbers and vote their concerns. (00:26:52) And so I'm not looking past the midterms. (00:26:55) I do think it is important that we acknowledge Donald Trump has injected chaos and corruption into everything he touched. (00:27:05) And I think it's important for me, for other democratic leaders in this country, to be able to show what calm, competent governance can actually deliver for people. (00:27:17) That's what I'm going to be talking about in these midterms as I seek re-election. (00:27:21) I think it is important to paint an alternative picture to the chaos (00:27:25) Donald Trump has created, one where you can actually grow the economy. (00:27:29) You can make our communities safer. (00:27:31) We didn't talk about this yet, but we've hired 2,000 more police officers, invested in community violence prevention, and violent crime is down 12%. (00:27:39) Fatal gun violence is down 42% in our Commonwealth. (00:27:43) We've invested in public education. (00:27:45) And by the way, scores are up. (00:27:47) Truancy is down. (00:27:50) We're moving up on the list. (00:27:51) We're about 10th, according to consumer affairs and the quality of public education. (00:27:55) I think we've got to show that there is an alternative to Donald Trump's chaos, to his cruelty, to his corruption. (00:28:02) And you're seeing that, I think, certainly in my state, and I think you're seeing it in other states as well. (00:28:08) And we need to paint that alternative picture. (00:28:10) So 26 is certainly going to be a referendum on the first two years of this presidency. (00:28:16) which was extremely popular for the first nine months or so. (00:28:20) People felt really good about the economy. (00:28:22) Some people. (00:28:22) And that, well, I think his polling was great, but there was this tinge, I think, it's pretty accurate to say the tariffs felt like those were chaotic. (00:28:34) Then you get the ICE situation, that feels very chaotic. (00:28:37) Then you go to this war with Iran, and that feels like a peak chaotic moment that we're in here in week six of this. (00:28:43) So it's certainly going to be a referendum on Trump. (00:28:46) And it feels like all the Democrats have to do is sit back and say, look, is this what you want, gas prices up, inflation? (00:28:54) But you're saying they have to paint another picture. (00:28:56) Paint that picture for me. (00:28:57) What is that picture? (00:28:58) I think on both sides of what you just said, Donald Trump chose to push the tariff button. (00:29:05) right? (00:29:06) And as a result, here in Pennsylvania, what we're seeing is coffee prices are up 30%. (00:29:11) Beef is up 19%. (00:29:13) OJ, orange juice is up 9%. (00:29:15) The fertilizers, my farmers rely on here in Pennsylvania, up 36%. (00:29:19) So we're seeing whether you're a farmer, whether you're, you know, a dad just trying to cook dinner for his kids, whatever the case may be, everything costs more because of the recklessness and the chaotic approach Donald Trump's taking our economy with these (00:29:35) tariffs. (00:29:35) Obviously, this war has spiked gas prices, up today about 415, 416 here in Pennsylvania, similar across the country, probably years before those gas prices come down, even if the war, you know, hopefully ends, you know, very, very soon. (00:29:53) And so I think it is important, yes, to point that out. (00:29:56) The way Donald Trump's policies have hurt the American people, have hurt our farmers, have hurt our small businesses. (00:30:03) The point I was making a moment ago is I think that's part of the conversation. (00:30:07) The other part of the conversation is, okay, well, what are you doing to make people's lives go? (00:30:11) Yeah, so what should the top three things be? (00:30:13) Like if you were running the Democratic Party and everybody got in a room and said, you know what, we really are going to take winning seriously, not get into this like purity test for everybody (00:30:23) in the party. (00:30:24) And, everybody's got to be perfect. (00:30:27) And Joe Rogan's not good enough to go on air with because he's a lifelong Democrat, but he said something about COVID we don't agree with. (00:30:35) Therefore, he's out of the party. (00:30:36) Elon Musk is a little bit weird. (00:30:38) But the Democrats did. (00:30:40) And then, oh, Elon Musk waited hours to and had Obama at SpaceX. (00:30:44) And then all of a sudden, he can't come to the White House for the EV summit, the category he created. (00:30:48) Like, it's pretty obvious the Democratic Party had some real dysfunction in there. (00:30:53) in terms of building a bigger tent. (00:30:55) And I can tell you, I have never felt more courted in my life than the Republican Party trying to get me to be part of the Trump movement, which I demurred and declined. (00:31:07) It wasn't my style. (00:31:09) But they are trying to build the biggest tent possible. (00:31:12) They're like, oh, you agree with 14% of what we do? (00:31:15) You're in. (00:31:16) Okay. (00:31:17) Yeah. (00:31:18) So walk me through what the top things should be. (00:31:21) Let's just say, first off, you attribute a number of things to Democrats that I didn't say. (00:31:25) So you're here interviewing me, so let's focus on the things I say. (00:31:30) Number 2, they went and they courted you and you demurred. (00:31:34) But by the way, even had you not demurred, had you signed up, I don't know that your life would be better off after a year and a half of Trump's policies. (00:31:42) What I am for here in Pennsylvania, the ultimate swing state, the toughest state to win in, an incredibly tough state to govern in, particularly with a divided legislature. (00:31:53) I'm for investing in public education, giving every child of God an opportunity. (00:31:58) I'm for safe communities, and we're building that here, and we're reducing crime in all of our communities. (00:32:04) I'm for a pro-growth economy where we generate more energy, we generate more jobs, where we create more opportunities, particularly in our rural (00:32:12) communities and forgotten communities that have been too often left behind. (00:32:15) And here's the fourth thing I'm for. (00:32:17) I am for freedom. (00:32:19) And I'll tell you what, this president represents a party that used to be known as the Party of Freedom. (00:32:25) And now they have turned their backs on that. (00:32:27) They want to tell my kids what books they're allowed to read. (00:32:30) They want to tell women what medicines they can take and what they can do with their bodies. (00:32:35) They want to control the way I raised my child. (00:32:39) They want to say, you know, every day that, (00:32:42) yeah, you can vote, but we're going to set the rules and try and rig them in a way where you're not going to be successful. (00:32:48) They are not the party of freedom. (00:32:50) And I think the Democratic Party has an opportunity to be the party of education, safety, economic opportunity, and freedom. (00:32:57) That's what we're doing here in Pennsylvania, and that's what I'm going to continue to put forth. (00:33:01) I think it's a great platform. (00:33:03) I would add to it housing. (00:33:04) The thing I hear about from young people all the time is that, just I'll never be able to afford a house. (00:33:09) The American dream's a bit of a scam and college is overpriced. (00:33:13) So how do you think about housing and what is that an issue in your state or? (00:33:19) Let's talk about housing. (00:33:20) Let's also talk about college because you raised both of them in your question. (00:33:24) I mean, that has disinfected, by the way, just like 2 generations who are like, you guys tricked us on housing. (00:33:30) You told us to be able to get home and you won't sell your home, Boomers. (00:33:34) And you told us we could always make more than our college education costs. (00:33:38) And that was a lie too. (00:33:39) Yeah. (00:33:40) When I was talking about economic opportunity, it's somewhat shorthand, if you will, for also being able to afford that community. (00:33:46) Affording that community can be healthcare, it can be housing, right? (00:33:49) But let's talk about housing. (00:33:51) Here in Pennsylvania, I've asked the legislature for a $1 billion fund to be able to build more housing in Pennsylvania and repair existing housing. (00:34:00) 50% of my housing was built prior to 1950. (00:34:04) You can invest a few 1000 bucks in a new boiler, a new roof, some new windows, actually keep people in their homes and not have to build new homes. (00:34:12) We also have to eliminate or damn near eliminate the red tape that exists when it comes to building housing. (00:34:19) We got to be able to build this faster. (00:34:21) And so I put forth a regulatory reform plan to be able to build more housing. (00:34:27) I think that is really, really crucial. (00:34:29) Let's talk about college for a minute. (00:34:31) The first day I was governor, the 1st executive order I signed was to do away with the college degree requirement to work for state government. (00:34:40) We have 80,000 employees, damn near all. (00:34:43) Now you do not have to have a college degree other than say the doctors and lawyers and people like that who require advanced degrees. (00:34:50) So now 60%, six zero, 60% of all of our hires in state government (00:34:56) don't have a college degree. (00:34:57) We followed up on that by tripling our funding for vo-tech and CTE in our high schools, dramatically increasing our funding for apprenticeship programs. (00:35:08) 62% of my adult population here in Pennsylvania do not have a college degree. (00:35:13) So we need to make sure we're investing in them so that they have opportunities. (00:35:18) You want to go learn to be a welder, you're going to make 6 figures work in a shipyard in South Philadelphia. (00:35:24) You want to go and you want to work on an HVAC system, you're going to work in some of our most complex life sciences construction jobs. (00:35:33) And you're going to make 6 figures doing that. (00:35:35) So for us, we fundamentally believe that you've got many pathways to opportunity here in Pennsylvania. (00:35:42) For some, it's going to college, great. (00:35:44) And for others, if you choose not to go to college, that's also great. (00:35:48) We're going to make sure that we pave the way for you and give you that opportunity. (00:35:51) Yeah, the generation tool belt movement is well upon us. (00:35:55) People are starting to figure out going in debt 100, 200K versus getting a plumber job, carpenter job, HVAC, whatever, for six figures out of the gate is a much better opportunity. (00:36:06) Yeah, and to be clear, I'm not on people that go to college. (00:36:09) I went to college. (00:36:09) I presume you went to go to college. (00:36:12) But for too long, by the way, politicians in both parties (00:36:16) Define success exclusively around the idea of you having to have a college degree, and then set up arbitrary barriers to entry. (00:36:24) Hey, if you don't have a college degree, you can't apply here. (00:36:27) Well, what about the skills that you developed in the military? (00:36:29) What about the skills you developed at a trade school or the skills that you developed working in the private sector? (00:36:35) Those skills should matter, and now they do in Pennsylvania, and we're no longer taking an elitist approach that shuts people out just because they don't have a college degree. (00:36:45) We're giving (00:36:46) them the keys to opportunity, and we're giving them opportunities to pursue more success here in Pennsylvania. (00:36:52) Does the socialist democratic movement worry you, Mandami and the crew? (00:37:00) How do you think about that in terms of the party dynamics? (00:37:03) I mean, remember the question you asked me out of three or four questions ago about you said, well, I only agree with 14% of what you agree with, you know, come join the party. (00:37:12) Look, my view is that we got to have a big tent. (00:37:14) And my view is that we've got to have a real debate around different ideas. (00:37:18) And just because I might not agree with you on these three things, I might agree with you on something else. (00:37:23) Listen, I'm sitting behind my desk here in the governor's office. (00:37:27) This is where I negotiate bills and budgets and other things. (00:37:30) If I threw everybody out of my office that I didn't agree with 100% of the time, we'd never get anything done. (00:37:36) When I sit down across the table from a Republican lawmaker, say, what are the 10 things you want to accomplish? (00:37:42) I tell him the 10 things I want to accomplish. (00:37:44) And you know what? (00:37:44) We're not going to agree on all 10, but if we agree on three or four, I'd rather focus on those three or four things where we can find common ground than the five, six, seven things where we're just going to disagree. (00:37:54) And so I think if you want to make progress, you've got to figure out how to create majorities, (00:38:00) Whether it's a majority in the legislature to get a bill to my desk, a majority come election time to win an election, you've got to find ways to bring people together and find common ground and not just focus exclusively on our differences. (00:38:13) What's your take on what's going on in Congress, Senate, in terms of Trump and getting alignment there? (00:38:19) Because, hey, when you go to war or you do tariffs, this was something we had a consultation between these different branches of our government. (00:38:27) And we had other presidents on the Democrat side, et cetera, say, hey, we're going to just get rid of student loan. (00:38:33) I'm doing an executive order. (00:38:34) I'm curious your take on the balance of our different branches of government and the lack of collaboration, because this is particularly disturbing. (00:38:44) We're both Gen. (00:38:44) Xers. (00:38:45) We grew up watching the Democrats and the Republicans argue, but then they all got together, had lunch, (00:38:50) And they negotiated. (00:38:52) Where is that esprit de corpse of everybody rowing in the same direction for all Americans versus this toxic, you know, we're just going to block each other and do character assassination at every single turn? (00:39:06) It's the most polarized of our lifetimes for sure. (00:39:09) I actually think the Congress of the United States, the leadership there, I mean, they're frankly kind of sad, pathetic people. (00:39:18) people. (00:39:18) And let me explain why, right? (00:39:20) You put, what's his name, Johnson in as speaker, and he's effectively a rubber stamp for anything Donald Trump wants. (00:39:29) And by the way, whether you agree with Trump or not, I think he can agree that you'd like your member of Congress to at least meet the burdens that they have on them in the Constitution of the United States, (00:39:42) which is to be a check, which is to be a separate branch of government and a branch of government that has meaningful responsibilities here. (00:39:51) When the Congress of the United States walks away from their responsibilities, whether on tariffs or whether on declaring war, and ultimately just kind of