Tom Holland explains how 1999 DNA tests, combined with Annette Gordon-Reed's archival research showing Jefferson was present at Monticello nine months before each of Sally Hemings's children was born, established as near-certain what most 20th-century biographers had denied. ✦ AI generated
Tom Holland · The Rest Is History · 2026-07-09 · original ↗
starts at this moment · 52:39
“So what changes?”
the key development comes in 1999 when DNA tests prove that the father of Sally's children had been a member of the Jefferson male line doesn't prove that it was Thomas Jefferson but I mean it's very strong likelihood that it was
verbatim transcript · starts at 52:39
52:39point 1970 when Jefferson's moral stature is so great >> that [clears throat] it is I mean to most American historians it probably is unthinkable that Thomas Jefferson could lower himself to this depravity >> right so what changes well the key development comes in 1999 when DNA tests prove that the father of Sally's children had been a member of the Jefferson male line doesn't prove that it was Thomas Jefferson but I mean it's
53:06very strong likelihood that it was and then there's been very detailed research by uh the great scholar of the Hemings um family and of the relationship of Sally Hemings to Thomas Jefferson and at Gordon Reed and she did detailed analysis of of the Jefferson archives which are very copious >> and she demonstrated that Jefferson had been present at Montichello nine months before the birth of every one of Sally
53:31Hemings's children. So again that's quite substantive evidence. Um and then in 2017 um archaeologists working at Montichello excavated Sally's room complete with original hearth fireplace and floors and it's directly adjacent to Jefferson's bedroom. >> Right. >> So there are still um Jefferson scholars who who doubt it. But I would say the overwhelming consensus now of historians is that um Jefferson had kept Sally Hemings as his mistress. That Madison
54:02Hemings and her other children were Jefferson's children. Um and this has been accepted by the Thomas Jefferson Foundation which runs Montichello. So that effectively I think is case proven. So let's get into their relationship. So obviously there's so much I mean h it's impossible to ever know the truth about anybody's relationship I suppose even your own but um their relationship is surely I mean the fact that they are as
54:28it were master and slave can never be separated from the reality of their relationship. No, it is obviously massively coercive. I mean I mean Jefferson owns Sally as property and as you said, you know, he's in his mid-4s when they begin their affair and she's, you know, in her mid- teens. So in every way there is a colossal power imbalance there. So I I suppose the question that