Audio · 2015-03-06 · 1h 49m · 6 moments

10+ Years of Rails (Interview)

David Heinemeier Hansson, aka DHH joined the show to talk through the past, present, and future of Ruby on Rails — the most beloved web application framework in the Ruby community. ✦ AI generated

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GUEST David Heinemeier Hansson

timeline · colored by role

Claim◆

When you can lift up the level of expectation to the point where the past seems obvious and that it's just not something we have to think about anymore, that is true progress.

DHH defines progress as the point where past innovations become so obvious that nobody thinks about them anymore, using Rails' famous 15-minute blog video as an example of something that was groundbreaking then but is now expected.

transcript

David Heinemeier Hansson: I think it's great. I think it's even greater that people don't even realize it today. That to me is true progress. When you can lift up the level of expectation to the point where the past seems obvious and that it's just not something we have to think about anymore. These days, of course, a new open source framework or library should have a slick marketing page. Of course, it should have advocacy. These things were not true at that point. But now they are, and the world is a better place, in my opinion, for it.

Claim◆

The web application is a pretty well-defined space — it follows a template form — and the more your application is like everyone else's, the higher level tools you can benefit from.

DHH argues that web applications follow a templated form (controllers, database, views), and that Rails' full-stack approach is appropriate because most apps are not unique snowflakes requiring bespoke tool assembly.

transcript

David Heinemeier Hansson: I think part of it is that the web and the web application follows more of a template form than the use of an operating system. An operating system has to account for more different kinds of usage. The web application is a pretty well-defined space, at least for sort of that majority template that we're trying to present, which is controllers talking to a database, creating views. Like it's a very templated approach to software development, right? Like it's not sort of blue sky, like it's well-trodden domain.

explains mechanism · 1

Claim

Rails came with a set of defaults, but you're free to substitute; the Rails tent is large enough to fit people who want to build client-side MVC, because we share far more than we differ.

DHH explains that Rails can accommodate API-only usage and client-side MVC apps because most of the value is in shared infrastructure like Active Record, not just the view layer. He commits to making Rails 5 friendlier for API-only applications.

transcript

David Heinemeier Hansson: The rails tent is large enough to fit people who want to build client-side MVC. Of course it is. And I can divorce that from my own personal opinions about how suitable or not suitable, client-side MVC is for a large swath of applications and whether I personally want to build my applications in that fashion. I think that's a key foundation of why rails is such a big success. It's because we've found a platform where many people can collaborate, even if they disagree on some of the particulars.

extends · 1gives example · 1

Claim

Money corrupts intrinsic motivation — API design fares poorly when developers are paid full-time to work on open source on behalf of others rather than extracting from their own work.

DHH argues that professional open source (paid full-time work) can harm API design because developers get removed from extracting their own problems, and that extrinsic rewards can corrupt intrinsic motivation, citing the book Punished by Rewards.

transcript

David Heinemeier Hansson: Dealing with API design, which is a large part and perhaps the majority part of what makes Rails Rails, the DNA of Rails, is the API design. That is an aspect I feel fares quite poorly in a professional open source context, where somebody is being paid full time to work on it. There's the fact that you get removed from sort of extracting problems. You're not extracting your own problems anymore. You're doing things on behalf of others.

Claim

Rails has never been in a better position regarding code, community, and leadership — broader, more diverse, and more engaged than ever.

DHH responds to a critic who said Rails badly needs leadership, asserting that the contributor base is broader and more diverse than ever, the friction of contribution has dropped dramatically, and the old MERB-style splintering is no longer a risk because the contribution path is now a highway.

transcript

David Heinemeier Hansson: I think the group that we have, both the core group, but more importantly, the contributors group, the people who are invested and engaged and interested in working on Rails for more than just a single issue is richer, more diverse, broader, and more skilled than it's ever been. When I look at the contributors channel, when I look at the activity that we have on the pull requests, when I look at the stats we have for processing pull requests, and finally, when I look at the result of the Rails framework that I am so happy to get to use almost every day, it's just unescapable that it's never been better.

supports · 3

Claim

I would not have been doing any of this work if it hadn't been for my pleasure — I continue to be involved in Rails because I'm enjoying it, not because of obligation or defending some legacy.

DHH closes the interview by emphasizing that his decade-plus commitment to Rails is driven purely by enjoyment and fun, not obligation, and invites listeners to follow him on Twitter and Signal vs Noise.

transcript

David Heinemeier Hansson: I wouldn't have been doing any of this work if it hadn't been for my pleasure. And it certainly has been, and it continues to be. I continue to be involved in Rails because of enjoying it, not because of obligation, not because defending some legacy or something else, simply because I'm having a lot of fun and I'm enjoying myself a bunch.

explains mechanism · 1

Highlight slides

True Progress = Past Becomes Invisible✦ from: When you can lift up the level of expectation to the point where the past seems obvious and that it's just not something we have to think about anymore, that is true progress.Rails' 15-Minute Blog: Then vs. Now✦ from: When you can lift up the level of expectation to the point where the past seems obvious and that it's just not something we have to think about anymore, that is true progress.Web apps follow a template form✦ from: The web application is a pretty well-defined space — it follows a template form — and the more your application is like everyone else's, the higher level tools you can benefit from.Template fit determines tool level✦ from: The web application is a pretty well-defined space — it follows a template form — and the more your application is like everyone else's, the higher level tools you can benefit from.

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