The only argument for product management as a specialist function is that it's a trade, not a qualification — but the more you abstract engineers and designers from doing PM work, the more their muscle atrophies.
Verrilli explains that PM is a skill built by reps, and abstracting engineers/designers away from product decisions under-develops their muscle. So Product management should be deployed for leverage on specific high-stakes things, but avoided wherever possible. ✦ AI generated
Tom Verrilli · Lenny's Podcast · 2026-08-02 · original ↗
starts at this moment · 0:38
The only argument for why you would want product management to be a specialist function is really it's a trade, not a qualification. It's something you get good at by doing. It's a muscle. And as every private trainer has ever told me, muscles are built by reps. And so the more you do it, the better you get at it. But the the flip side of that is the more you abstract your engineers and your designers from doing the same thing, their muscle gets underdeveloped. And so I think product management plays a really important role. And I think, you know, you can deploy product management to have really important leverage on particular things that need to go really well. Um, and in a lot of ways doing that lets design and engineering be the best they can be at their craft in those situations. But wherever possible it's kind of optimal to not have a product manager uh and instead have design and engineering going through those those kind of steps and making sure that their muscles are well repped.
verbatim transcript · starts at 0:38
0:21and whatn not product team was built on the somewhat simple premise. We regret that product management exists. Not a thing you probably hear from a lot of CPOS. We articulate it that way to force ourselves to remember that you don't hire a PM just for the sake of hiring one. You hire one where there's really specific need. >> It [music] is better to not assume we need a PM in every place.
0:38>> The only argument for why you would want product management to be a specialist function is really it's a trade not a qualification. It's something you get good at by doing. It's a muscle. But the flip side of that is the more you abstract your engineers and your designers from doing the same thing, their muscle gets underdeveloped. He also wrote this brutal quote. In the last 2 years, 31,832
1:00people applied to be a product manager at whatnot. We hired one. What does he look for in the folks that you hire? >> I can tell you what's definitely trending down. Folks who spend a lot of their time in their interviews talking about driving alignment and stakeholder management because there's definitely a group of PMs whose specialty wasn't technical, it was politics. >> You're very excited about this move to
1:19IC work. PM's moving away from this big org management world. If you were really successful as a PM, you got promoted into being a director. We took all of our A players and then promoted them out of doing things. Why [music] wouldn't you want Messi playing for your team rather than trying to have the academy coming along all the time? Today, my guest is Tom Verilli. Tom is
1:40chief product officer at Whatnot, former longtime chief product officer at Twitch, and former director of product growth at Twitter. He's also someone I've been wanting to get on this podcast for so long. Tom has a lot of hot takes and really unique and important insights on the future of the product role, [music] what he's seeing the best PMs doing differently these days, and what he's looking for when he's hiring
1:59product people for his team. Now, if you're not familiar with whatnot, it's a live stream shopping platform. It's the fastest growing US marketplace business of all time. At one point, Tom shares how he bought a fresh lobster from a fisherman on the platform. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out lenny'spass.com [music] for a free year of the hottest and most beautifully crafted AI products in the
2:21world available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Tom Verilli. Tom, thank you so much for being here and welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you so much, dude. It feels kind of surreal after years of watching. >> I hear that. I hear that when people come on the podcast. Here you are. giving you first time long time. [laughter] >> That's right. Um I want to start with
2:46something that you wrote online that surprised a lot of people and I think will surprise a lot of people uh coming from a longtime chief product officer, longtime product builder, someone that's built a lot of very successful products and teams. What you wrote is since its earliest inception, the whatnot product team has built was built on the somewhat simple premise. We regret that product management exists. Yes sir. Not a thing