Jefferson is America's great tragic figure: the man who articulated the nation's founding principles of liberty more powerfully than anyone else was also the president who betrayed those principles most grievously, knowingly, because Montichello and its way of life mattered more to him than freeing his slaves.

72:12him. To the extent that I can explain this you know the paradox that is Thomas Jefferson this I think is the explanation. you know, he is the the the the president of the United States who articulated the principles of America more boldly and more stirringly and more inspirationally >> than any other. But I think for that reason, he is also the the United States president who came to betray them the

72:40most grievously. He knew what he was doing, >> right? >> You know, we joke and say Thomas Jeffson, he's you know, history's a great monster. He wasn't a monster. He was a man of genuine principle. >> Mhm. >> But it's for that reason that his portrayal of those principles are all the more shameful. I think >> you're right. Yeah. Cuz you're sort of distinguishing. I mean, there's a

73:01difference between somebody who basically has been bred in the world of the 18th century. >> Right. >> Cannot think themselves outside it. doesn't question the uh established practices of the time and therefore, you know, owns slaves, buys and sells slaves, and is completely implicated in what we would now regard as a horrendous institution. And and you're effectively saying this is somebody who basically thinks it's wrong. >> He knows it's wrong to the depths of his

73:28heart, in his marrow, >> knows it's wrong, but his own pastoral classical fantasy world. >> Yeah. as it were, means more to him than doing what he believes to be right. And presumably he told himself the slaves are much better living with me on my plantation and working for me. I think he probably did tell himself that, but I don't think that's a justification that he would have accepted,

73:53>> right? >> You know, and and that's why I think he if he were alive now, >> he would accept the force of the arguments made by his critics. He would be on their side in his gut. >> Yeah. in saying he that he did wrong. And I think that if the definition of a tragedy is that, you know, someone who is destroyed by their own best